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What I'm mainly referring to here is the Carnifex and the Wraithlord. If you look on each army's forum you will see posts declaring that these options are almost useless as CC specialists, and that outfitting them for ranged combat is the way to go.
The Carnifex, the tyranids answer to the tank, boasts high strength, toughness and a huge amount of attacks. But it's slowness means that when it does get into CC, it will be with someone of the enemies choosing; where, due to its extremely poor weapon skill and initiative, it is unlikely to deal very many killing blows. You can Mathhammer it out all you like, against whatever opponents you want, but the point remains: It has to get into CC with them first! The carnifex is one of the most deadly killing machines in the 40K universe, capable of tearing apart vehicles with ease, a creature that you could reasonably apply the tank shock rule to when it charges (It can't, but in fiction it would have the same effect). So why is it so poor in CC? Instead it is fitted with a variety of ranged weapons for different roles, making use of its high number of attacks and natural strength, where it won’t be let down by its pathetic weapon skill or initiative. It has been turned from a perfect killing machine into a lumbering Ox that moves slowly, strikes almost last (last against anything other than power fists) and can barely hit a thing.
The Wraithlord is one of the most resilient choices in the Eldar army, and one of the most resilient choices in 40K, whose toughness can only be matched by C’tan! When looking at its stats you’d think it would be awesome in CC. Highest strength, enormous toughness, good save, multiple wounds, decent weapon skill, and access to weapons that enable it to be even more ferocious in combat. A Wraithlord kitted out with wraithsword, brightlance (for tanks), and twin-linked flamers should be effective, but instead a single pack of gaunts charged into it will effectively remove it from play, not because they can kill or even wound it, but because it can only kill, on average, one per turn.
What is happening to both of these things I believe is a result of them being too powerful on paper, so they were reduced. I started Eldar in the 4th edition, and my friend in Tyranids 3rd, so we don’t know the complete history of these creatures, but they were designed for Combat, and now it is more effective to use them for gun platforms just so that they can kill something of their choosing. I don’t think all these problems will be solved soon. And the next updates for Nids and Eldar are years away. Hopefully in the 5th edition we will see an improvement to the rules for monstrous creatures. Or they will continue the way they are going and the next codex updates will give the Fex Slow and Purposeful, and the Wraithlord only one attack.
Regardless of how effective they are at range, that shouldn't be the only way to use them so that they earn their points back.
Last edited by Shiz_Vaerth; February 4th, 2008 at 12:01.
Th ed and even though it could only take on average, like you said one or 2 enemies down a turn it was excellent at just......standing there and taking punishment, i always used one just to tie up troops in cc, but with the new rules it is just a glorified weapon platform, which in my opinion just doesn't do the fluff, and the model itself justice. It was far better with a cc role....plus i miss the giant fists =(
Every army has its underpowered units. Some even have completely useless units. Adapt and move on, it's all you can do.
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Are these choices generally worse at shooting or combat than a dreadnought? Because that's the comparison you should be making here. They all have weaknesses to powerfists, all cost about the same, and all can get bogged down by large chunks of cheap squads.
I was really interested to read this as CC fexes have been the bane of my life. All of the armies that I have played have been half-eaten and spat out by these guys at some point. I think I will have to carry a fresh perspective away with me on this one. I have always run away as fast a my transports or legs can carry me so maybe it is time for me to do some chewing...
Who would have thought it...
This is interesting, considering (as mentioned previously) Dreadnoughts are inferior in all respects to Wraithlords! Drives me insane.
the diffrence is that Dreadnoughts have armor not toughness. S5 can't touch a dreadnought but can still hurt a wraithlord. In that respect its is better in that you need weapons that have tank hunting in mind to hurt a dread while a heavy bolter or a pulse rifle can kill a wraith lord.
Army's used: Space Wolves, Tomb Kings, High Elves, Tyranids, Tau and Eldar.
yeah which he negates 2/3 of the time and then you have to do two more times!
t8 3w vs. av12? I'll take the risk of a couple lucky 6s from S5 any day over the fact that ANY weapon that successfully glances...let alone penetrates...means at best I can't shoot next turn, probably worse than that. My eldar buddy always moans about the WL, "he needs an isave." I should be so lucky to have any save at all! There's no immobilized, armament destroyed, or obviously destroyed results; it takes 3 shots no matter what you've got, and until then, it's just happily blasting away. Dreads take one. A couple of stinkin' 6's and that's all she wrote.
Course there's wraithsight...but um... LOOK OVER THERE!!
As far as which is better, it is strictly a matter of circumstances. A dread can take 500 hits and still not lose functionality (besides -1 A & not shooting), or it can die from one lucky shot. It also has a fantastic weapons loadout including the best gun in the game (bar none). They have fantastic mobility as they can be drop podded, and are cheaper than most configs of carnis or WLs. Where they really shine is in CC as they havea great init, hard to crack shell, and are immune to power weapons and are reasonably resiliant to rending attacks in CC (3-4's to hit, 6 to rend, 2+ to glance on most, working out to roughly 6% of CC attacks). Powerfists are better, (3 to hit, 4 to glance, 33% of CC attacks). The problem killing them comes with the possiblity of venerable or poor damage rolls. Vs anything S5 or less, they are simply immune, and even with a powerfist, they'll still stand the chance of killing enough of the squad (if they get they charge) to render the HPF ineffective.
Carnies on the other hand swing SUPER slow, move super slow with no way to boost that, can't uber DS(drop pod), and cost about the same. The plus side comes from a reasonable toughness, and an okay save. Mind you, since they can be wounded by S3 guns, they will be dying to large amounts of fire, and anything that denies a marine his save will easily mow down carnies too. Now, on the bright side, a charging carni, all tooled up, can get 6+ attacks on the charge, with the average around 3 since they are usually fitted for ranged fighting (apples to apples?). Now at the ranged game, they are capable of laying down a HUGE amount of fire, easily shredding a great many things, or pumping out a ton of shots, but once in CC they bog down huge. 2 attacks a turn means you'll be reliably killing 1 enemy, and being hurt by s3 means you can be swarmed by anything in the game. Factor in rending totally recking your stuff, ld tests to move, easy to move away from, and dying horribly to PFs, HPFs, and powerweapons of all sorts (not to mention forceweapon ZOTS), and the psychic powers that they are susceptable to and a dread looks pretty good.
Wraithlords had it all in 3rd (better yet, check second ed when they were still dreads=)-more attacks than now, better guns, and cheaper, made them incredably effective for what they were-one of eldars only viable heavy options. Now 4th ed came along and recked all that. Falcons, FPs, and vibros are all much better than before, and even dark reaers got better, squeezing the heavy slot even tighter. Add in wraithsight, somewhat crap weapon choices (compared to marines or 3ed), and the fact that 2 shooting weapons of the same type now become twinlinked makes them pretty crappy. At Range they still have it-good at killing tanks and vehicles and hordes (double flamer to the face), but once stuck in CC they are boned. While they are immune to S4 and below shooting and CC, rending owns them, as do HPF, PF, FW. See above for high ap stuff owning them at range.
All three have one great thing going for them at a distance-they draw fire from people that don't know how to prioritize targets. Each one can do great things but strictly in CC the dread has a HUGE amount going for it.
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