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  1. #1
    The deep down truth Rikimaru's Avatar
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    The futility of posting new lists pre 5th Ed

    With the imminent release of the 5th edition of 40K in July, I feel it is ill advised to offer advice on building new Tau lists. This especially applies to anyone who is intending buying new models to build a list.

    The new edition of 40K is going to mean radical changes for Tau list building and I think it is both irresponsible and ill advised to recommend models/units that may not be of any use (or much reduced in effectiveness) post the 5th edition release. 40K models are not cheap and I think it is only sensible to hold of on giving advice until we at least know the basics of changes the 5th edition is going to make to Tau list building.

    I am asking all you guru's out there to consider this when advising new comers to Tau about list building/changes etc' we need to be making sure that the poster is aware of the imminent 5th edition release and advising them that it may be better for them to wait until the new release before committing to buying models.

    I for one am going to refrain from posting on the list forum until the 5th is released (I will post if I know the players are aware of the 5th changes and are experienced players/list builders, but not for newbies).

    I think this is the responsible and common sense approach and feel that we should all be considering the impact of the 5th edition when advising on list builds.

    1984

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  3. #2
    I am a free man! number6's Avatar
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    786 (x8)

    You can't be serious?

    Every army is going to play a little differently under 5e. But you make it sound as if entire units or unit options will simply cease to be useful upon the release of the new rules. That's just not going to be true.

    No matter what the new rules do, mech Tau will still be a viable way to play the game.
    No matter what the new rules do, we'll still like and want to employ fire warriors, crisis suits, broadsides, hammerheads, etc.

    Also consider that perhaps Ultimate Competitiveness is not always the goal? I know I use what are currently considered to be "underperforming" units/options (e.g., piranhas, ionheads) -- even in my competitive lists -- and I'm quite satisfied with the results.

    List-building is, undeniably, an important part of the game. But it is still only part of the game. The same army list will perform entirely differently when commanded by different generals. There's only so much one can definitively say about how effective a particular unit or list build is.

    The general advice on what unit combos tend to synergize, and what options tend to be more useful (in general situations, against specific opponents, ...) is just not going to change that much.

    This fearmongering does a disservice to everyone. Honest and helpful advice can and should still be offered. Give caveats if you must, but don't refuse to help people because you are afraid that what you say will be utterly useless. That shows more concern for your ego and reputation than for actually helping people out.
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  4. #3
    Sadomachiatto Karmoon's Avatar
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    790 (x8)

    Actually,

    I think people would do well to heed Rikimaru's advice.

    That said, it's definitely not something that we could ever implement as a rule here on LO.
    So, despite asking everyone to listen to Riki', in turn I'm going to ask Riki to respect that it might be peoples' wishes to act in a manner which doesn't necessarily make sense.

    ... and thus... the world turns.
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  5. #4
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    84 (x2)

    Actually, I think people would do well to ignore Riki's advice, and help each other develop lists that they like to play.

    5th isn't out yet, and I'm playing in a tournament on Saturday using (gasp) 4th edition rules; you know, the current ones. Even if I was a newb, I would still want help if I posted a list. And listen to how crazy I am: yesterday, I went and bought 12 more firewarriors and another devilfish! Even with 5th edition right around the corner!

    If you post, you are looking for help and comments on your list and on your thinking about the list. Should I not post my list because the rules will change in a couple of months? Or should people who comment simply add the point that, based on (often still contradictory) rumors, the rules will change when the new edition comes out in a month to all of our comments? Thereby showing how the list will change. The answer seems obvious to me. With warning, people can still by kroot or firewarriors if they want. We need to help those who want help, and inform them of the impending rules-shift, not throw up our hands in (arrogant) denial.

    It seems to me that riki has gone off the deep end a little bit. We can give advice (and suggest not to buy), sure, but thinking about the list and how it works as a whole is often more important that the actual list building itself. Rules really won't change that.

    Using Riki's comment, what about straight fluffy lists that newb wants to build. No comments there from fluff-experts, so the list flounders, and a potential recruit to 40K falls away? Furthermore, based on rumors, it seems that many of the tau units will perform the same as they performed before, but it's the overall game that will be changing.

    The livelyhood of the gaming community thrives in forums like this, and saying that we'll ignore army lists is just detrimental to the forum and community as a whole.

    Just my two cents.
    Last edited by Y'he Sha'is; May 29th, 2008 at 18:31.
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  6. #5
    The deep down truth Rikimaru's Avatar
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    724 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by Y'he Sha'is View Post
    Actually, I think people would do well to ignore Riki's advice, and help each other develop lists that they like to play.

    5th isn't out yet, and I'm playing in a tournament on Saturday using (gasp) 4th edition rules; you know, the current ones. Even if I was a newb, I would still want help if I posted a list. And listen to how crazy I am: yesterday, I went and bought 12 more firewarriors and another devilfish! Even with 5th edition right around the corner!

    If you post, you are looking for help and comments on your list and on your thinking about the list. Should I not post my list because the rules will change in a couple of months? Or should people who comment simply add the point that, based on (often still contradictory) rumors, the rules will change when the new edition comes out in a month to all of our comments? Thereby showing how the list will change. The answer seems obvious to me. With warning, people can still by kroot or firewarriors if they want. We need to help those who want help, and inform them of the impending rules-shift, not throw up our hands in (arrogant) denial.

    It seems to me that riki has gone off the deep end a little bit. We can give advice (and suggest not to buy), sure, but thinking about the list and how it works as a whole is often more important that the actual list building itself. Rules really won't change that.

    Using Riki's comment, what about straight fluffy lists that newb wants to build. No comments there from fluff-experts, so the list flounders, and a potential recruit to 40K falls away? Furthermore, based on rumors, it seems that many of the tau units will perform the same as they performed before, but it's the overall game that will be changing.

    The livelyhood of the gaming community thrives in forums like this, and saying that we'll ignore army lists is just detrimental to the forum and community as a whole.

    Just my two cents.
    Please read my post again. The whole point of it was to say that advising a newcomer to Tau to build a list based on 4th edition rules could lead to an army that does not work very well. This could mean the poster has spent a *lot* of money on units he could very well end up not using.

    I put forward another point of view, new member joins and wants to build a new Tau army, he posts here for advice and he is advised to build a certain list, 5th comes around and he suddenly finds his list is not so good. Member gets p****d of because he got advice to build a less then effective army which he spent good money on and leaves forum.

    I never said ignore army lists, what I did say was we should not be advising on buying models or advising on lists based on a new rule set we have no experience with. I am not arrogant enough to advise anyone on rules I know very little about (is anyone else?).True I have a good idea how the army will work in the 5th but that is all it is a good idea based on rumours.
    It took us a long time just to adjust to the new Tau codex so how can you people say you are qualified to advise on a rule set that has not even been finalised huh?

    Number6 you have no idea what is going to synergise (or whatever), just as I have no real idea. Until we play games and get some experience with the new rules non of us are in any position to advise on what will work when the 5th is released. I am not scaremongering (huh) I am simply asking that we consider that 5th is around the corner (how is that scaremongering dude)

    I would also like to point out that I am not *telling* anyone to do anything, I am *suggesting* and asking that we think before we advise anyone on what to build/buy and to take into consideration that 5th is just around the corner. There are very very many experienced 40K players here and we all know how rules can change play-style and how lists work (Rhino rush nerfing in the 4th anyone) and there are very many changes in the new rules that are going to massively impact on how Tau work.

    Like I said I will advise anyone who has an army or has experience but I will not advise any one who is new to Tau to go out and spend money on models to create a new list that may well be (for want of a better word) crap in a month. Are you happy doing that?

    Y'he Sha'is, I never said that we could and should not develop lists I am saying we should not be telling members to build lists based on 4th edition rules. Please tell me what is the point in building a new list based on a rule set that has a month left of existence?, conversely how can we advise on a rule set we know little fixed, certain info on?
    Also Y please note that I have been saying we should be advising new members that 5th is around the corner. Yes we can advise buying Fire Warriors (but how many units? and are Kroot going to be better?), what about expensive Hammerheads (£25 will they be as good as the XV8, or Piranhas (£15 for one), XV8's (£12 and who knows what XV8 build is going to be best huh?). Can you say in all certainty that Piranhas are going to be any good for instance?. do we advise buying Pathfinders or Markerlight Drones? (given the new jetpack heavy weapon rule rumour). It is very easy to make a very costly mistake and I for one would not be happy having advised some poor sod to go buy £50 worth of models only to find out they are not that good a choice in 5th. *Arrogance* no, *common sense* yes

    I am actually surprised at the somewhat heated replies to what is only a common sense approach to advising members who want to build a new Tau army and to try to prevent said colleagues from making expensive unnecessary purchases. I actually had the well being of this fine forum in mind when I posted this and was simply asking that the imminent release of the 5th edition be taken into account.

    Last point Shas, who said anything about not advising on existing lists that use the (gasp) 4th edition rules. You have totally missed the point of my post dude. I would also consider that you are talking to someone who has probably spent more time than just about anyone on this forum advising members how to develop their Tau lists so they get a satisfying experience out of this fine game and that is exactly what I was doing with this thread, trying to ensure no one went out and spent money on models or a list that would end up disappointing them. I AM helping each other develop lists that they will like to play, can you not see that?
    Last edited by Rikimaru; May 29th, 2008 at 20:27.
    1984

  7. #6
    Member theambit's Avatar
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    I have to agree with Riki, as a lot of people who post army lists looking for advice are inexperienced players, or younger players who don't have money to spend on potentially "extra" units. People who get advice, spend their allowance on some units, and then go lose consistantly will not be happy. Yes, people play to have fun, but being 0-20 loses it's charm after a while. Ofcourse the rules are not going to obselete complete units, but it may make some lose effectiveness, and while some people play for the pure modelling aspect of the game, those who don't, probably don't want 100 dollars of units sitting at home.

    For those people entering tournements and competing consistently, you probably don't need much army help as you're experienced enough to make your own choices.

    Riki isn't trying to protect the experienced player, but the newcomer who perhaps can't afford 45 dollars on a potentially bad model, you have to remember, people arn't asking for advice on what is fun, they're asking on what can win, and that answer may change in 2 months.

  8. #7
    I am a free man! number6's Avatar
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    786 (x8)

    Something tells me that you have very strong opinions on this matter, riki....
    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru View Post
    Please read my post again. The whole point of it was to say that advising a newcomer to Tau to build a list based on 4th edition rules could lead to an army that does not work very well. This could mean the poster has spent a *lot* of money on units he could very well end up not using.
    You assume much.

    Firstly, you assume that an army list that works perfectly fine in 4e won't also be viable in 5e, thus automatically rendering any and all advice based on what we do know entirely useless. This is farfetched, to say the least, especially considering the wide variety of what I'm sure you would consider "viable" builds that already exist. To discount all of that knowledge because you fear they won't work quite the same is extreme.

    Secondly, you assume that "new" people who post lists probably own nothing, or very little. Why is this the automatic assumption? I own two 40K armies, and both of them were obtained in the same fashion: I bought the models I liked, and then figured out how to use them effectively in an army list. Not once have I bought models based on advice I received in this forum (and I have posted army lists in the past when I was less experienced in all of the Tyranids, Space Marines, Daemonhunters, and Tau forums). Either I already owned the models (but perhaps hadn't used them yet), or was already intending to get them, or wouldn't use them no matter how highly recommended they came (just 'cause I didn't like them).

    This leads to a third assumption: the assumption that the only "newbies" who would post in this forum are ones who are only interested in building GW tourney circuit quality lists. They own nothing, and are only going to buy exactly what "gurus" like you (us?) recommend. They have little interest in the fluff or models beyond their ability to tune a killer list. Again, this is a rather extreme assumption.
    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru
    Number6 you have no idea what is going to synergise (or whatever), just as I have no real idea. Until we play games and get some experience with the new rules non of us are in any position to advise on what will work when the 5th is released. I am not scaremongering (huh) I am simply asking that we consider that 5th is around the corner (how is that scaremongering dude)
    Fourth, you assume that all accumulated knowledge about how to play the Tau accrued up to this point is suspect to complete dismissal because 5e is on the horizon. If you didn't believe this, you wouldn't be recommending that we cease helping out in the army lists subforum. Logically, therefore, you also believe that you will play your first 5e games with your Tau no better than the greenest, least knowledgeable player who steps into a GW store for the very first time.

    Experience -- even with a rapidly outdated rules set -- still means something, and should be of value to anyone.

    You are fearmongering to the extent that you took it upon yourself to recommend that we all cease and desist because ... LOOK OUT! 5e IS COMING! And we don't know everything about it yet! Run for the hills! Make no army lists! WE DON'T KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN!!

    I would argue that it is not your place to announce to us that it's useless to either ask for or give advice.
    I would argue that encouraging such behavior actually reduces possible interest in the Tau army.
    I would argue that such an attitude will encourage possible Tau afficionados to find a different community, a more open community. And there are at least two well-known such places on teh internets to which they could head.
    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru
    I would also like to point out that I am not *telling* anyone to do anything, I am *suggesting* and asking that we think before we advise anyone on what to build/buy and to take into consideration that 5th is just around the corner. There are very very many experienced 40K players here and we all know how rules can change play-style and how lists work (Rhino rush nerfing in the 4th anyone) and there are very many changes in the new rules that are going to massively impact on how Tau work.
    It is always dangerous to read too much into internet posts, but your method of "*suggesting*" looks and reads an awful lot like "*telling*" to my eyes (whether or not you actually intended it that way).c
    ninjabackhand: point and click, again, really? even after i give you an military term "shock tactic" you still call it point and click.
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    Lol you really should read his post, he is just saying he doesn't think anyone should tell anyone to buy models, and if they give advice, just suggest not buying anything for 2 months. Giving advice is fine on playstyle and technique, he's just trying to save some noobs some cash.

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    The thing is, some people are asking for advice on what is fun, and on what plays like what... so not all people are simply looking for nasty lists, and if you read Riki's post carefully, he isn't just saying that he's trying to save some newbs some money. See below.

    @ Riki: While I feel that you might have thought that you said a nice generalized tone, I want to point out what you actually wrote, and how it can be perceived as universal and a bit arrogant (and hence the reactions). I know that you always mean the best, but sometimes, the best is not really what you are writing. I actually agree with most of what you are saying, but the how you are saying it part... not so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru View Post
    With the imminent release of the 5th edition of 40K in July, I feel it is ill advised to offer advice on building new Tau lists. This especially applies to anyone who is intending buying new models to build a list.
    OK, the "especially" gives a dual thought to this comment. First, you are advising gurus not to offer advice on how to build lists with the advent of the 5th edition. I could not disagree with you more, but I've covered that above. List building and model buying are two very different things. And here is what gives the whole post a dirty taste to my mouth: you further your point with the "especially" not buying new models (indicating an extension of though). You aren't just saying something to save someone cash, but to not devise a list on a unknown rule set. I can see the logic, but I simply don't agree with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru View Post
    The new edition of 40K is going to mean radical changes for Tau list building and I think it is both irresponsible and ill advised to recommend models/units that may not be of any use (or much reduced in effectiveness) post the 5th edition release. 40K models are not cheap and I think it is only sensible to hold of on giving advice until we at least know the basics of changes the 5th edition is going to make to Tau list building.
    You are supposing as heavily as someone who says the rules aren't going to change the list much at all. I think both are probably wrong, but needless to say, part of this hobby is collecting as much as it is playing, and someone who buys some kroot to paint and play with them (or gasp, for fluff reasons), and wants to know how they will perform on the table should be able to get that advise, regardless of what's happening to the game in general. The presupposition would be that the person be informed of the impending rules change.

    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru View Post
    I am asking all you guru's out there to consider this when advising new comers to Tau about list building/changes etc' we need to be making sure that the poster is aware of the imminent 5th edition release and advising them that it may be better for them to wait until the new release before committing to buying models.
    I 100% agree that we should inform them as best we can, and then LET THEM DECIDE what they want to do with THEIR money. Having all the decent posters bail because you don't want to advise improperly isn't really doing anyone a service IMO. Just say "5th edition is coming you know, but we can still talk about your 4th edition list", and be done with it. But I guess we can differ on opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru View Post
    I for one am going to refrain from posting on the list forum until the 5th is released (I will post if I know the players are aware of the 5th changes and are experienced players/list builders, but not for newbies).
    I think we can all try to pick up the slack for a few months during your absense. Just kidding, of course. Your contributions are awesome! But when you read things like this (given the internet's ability to drain any and all personality out of any sentence), you have to admit that it does sound a bit "holier-than-thou", which I know was unintentional.

    Quote Originally Posted by rikimaru View Post
    I think this is the responsible and common sense approach and feel that we should all be considering the impact of the 5th edition when advising on list builds.
    I disagree. I don't think that what you think is common sense actually is. Why can't you just tell people as much as you can, and let them decide... newb or not?
    Last edited by Y'he Sha'is; May 29th, 2008 at 22:01.
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  11. #10
    The deep down truth Rikimaru's Avatar
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    724 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by Y'he Sha'is View Post
    The thing is, some people are asking for advice on what is fun, and on what plays like what... so not all people are simply looking for nasty lists, and if you read Riki's post carefully, he isn't just saying that he's trying to save some newbs some money. See below.


    @ Riki: While I feel that you might have thought that you said a nice generalized tone, I want to point out what you actually wrote, and how it can be perceived as universal and a bit arrogant (and hence the reactions). I know that you always mean the best, but sometimes, the best is not really what you are writing. I actually agree with most of what you are saying, but the how you are saying it part... not so much.
    Sheesh dude you need to relax a little bit, if you actually take the time to read the post you will see I am actually being the opposite of arrogant, because I am actually saying I am not qualified (nor is anyone for that matter) to advise on list building for the imminent release of 5th edition.


    Quote Originally Posted by Y'he Sha'is View Post
    OK, the "especially" gives a dual thought to this comment. First, you are advising gurus not to offer advice on how to build lists with the advent of the 5th edition. I could not disagree with you more, but I've covered that above. List building and model buying are two very different things. And here is what gives the whole post a dirty taste to my mouth: you further your point with the "especially" not buying new models (indicating an extension of though). You aren't just saying something to save someone cash, but to not devise a list on a unknown rule set. I can see the logic, but I simply don't agree with it.
    "dirty taste" oh c'mon this is just getting bloody silly. You talk as if I have some sinister agenda or something. For your info dude I am saying what I said exactly for that reason, OK many may compile a list and never build it. However 99% of members post lists they are going to play, by extension if they play then they are going to need models. If we give advice on something we are not qualified to do so (and be certain of this Y "we are not qualified") then we are doing the person asking for the advice a disservice. I pride myself on belonging to a forum that gives out good solid reliable advice and you are saying it is OK to just dole out advice on something none of us has experience in (the 5th edition rules). I am saying we should not be advising new Tau players on what to use in a Tau list (and buy) until we are in the position to at least have the material as reference.


    Quote Originally Posted by Y'he Sha'is View Post
    You are supposing as heavily as someone who says the rules aren't going to change the list much at all. I think both are probably wrong, but needless to say, part of this hobby is collecting as much as it is playing, and someone who buys some kroot to paint and play with them (or gasp, for fluff reasons), and wants to know how they will perform on the table should be able to get that advise, regardless of what's happening to the game in general. The presupposition would be that the person be informed of the impending rules change.
    No I am not suposing anything, that is the ENTIRE point, I do not know with certainty just what the changes are going to do to Tau and niether does anyone else until the 5th edition is released. This is not scaremongering and it has absolutely nothing to do with collecting, if someone wants to collect then thats fine; however we are not talking about collectors, we are talking about someone who wants to build a competitive list from new and we should not be advising on that


    Quote Originally Posted by Y'he Sha'is View Post
    I 100% agree that we should inform them as best we can, and then LET THEM DECIDE what they want to do with THEIR money. Having all the decent posters bail because you don't want to advise improperly isn't really doing anyone a service IMO. Just say "5th edition is coming you know, but we can still talk about your 4th edition list", and be done with it. But I guess we can differ on opinion.
    So you think it is OK to give advice the best you can, tell me if yu went to the doctor would you let the receptionist diagnose you, I mean just let her do the best she can. The same applies here, OK we have info on what the changes will be but nothing is set in stone until the release. Also I have never said anything about not discussing 4th edition lists. I am simply talking about lists that are situations where the poster makes it obvious he/she is a new comer to Tau, they are wanting to start Tau, they want advice on a list and it is obvious they have not purchased the models yet (this is the building I was ref to Y and the purchasing of the models following said building). In this case the list is going to be 5th edition compliant not 4th. We cannot differ on an opinion I never put forward in the 1st place. Please stop putting words in my mouth.


    Quote Originally Posted by Y'he Sha'is View Post
    I think we can all try to pick up the slack for a few months during your absense. Just kidding, of course. Your contributions are awesome! But when you read things like this (given the internet's ability to drain any and all personality out of any sentence), you have to admit that it does sound a bit "holier-than-thou", which I know was unintentional.
    Thank you for the compliment and I did not say I would be absent, I said I would not be commenting or advising on lists for new players whose lists would be used under 5th edition rules. No I do not agree it sounds holier than though, stop taking this so seriously.


    Quote Originally Posted by Y'he Sha'is View Post
    I disagree. I don't think that what you think is common sense actually is. Why can't you just tell people as much as you can, and let them decide... newb or not?
    I cannot tell people what I do not know and that is the whole point. If you feel comfortable advising on something you "think" you are qualified to discuss then feel free. I just think it will damage our reputation giving out advice on something no one has concrete information on.

    Anyway like I said chill out and stop trying to turn this into something it is not. I am not arrogant because I am admitting I do not know enough to offer any advice on the 5th. I can speculate (as I did in my 5th edition post in the Tau forum) but that is all I can do.
    1984

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