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First off, I know that the use of the word cheese offends some people, so let's just say "very competitive".
But back when I played the cheese was Siren bomb, or using a suped of Chaos Prince, Nidzilla, min/max SM infantry with all the Assault cannons you can get, and of course the classic: 3 wraithlords in a low point game.
But now it's 5th edition and it's like a whole another game. What are the powerhouse lists and why. Like I heard Nid's got nerfed but IG are one of the most feared armies now.
And please no arguing, if you play a "cheesy" list then whatever, I just want to know what are the stereotypical power armies.
I think the Necrons are very low on the competitive army lists. You need a relatively narrow list of units to have a half decent chance of winning with them. However, they are due for a new codex soon and that could all change. I think Guard are near the top of the best list in my view. My Chaos Daemons are very competitive, but struggle against the Guard. Space Marine and Space Marine spin offs are in the middle-up on the best list. On this topic, ten different people are going to have ten different views.
Nids got nerfed? NO SIR THEY DID NOT!
basically the power lists are anything built during the 5th edition rules. So thats codex marines, guard, space wolves and blood angels. Of those, guard are insanly effective and can build some devastating lists, BA and SW are both very hard to beat aswell when built right. Nids aren't queit as cheese as those 3, but can still put together some brutal lists, as can codex marines.
Your friendly neighbourhood gargantuan creature
Thanks for the response. But what aspect of these new armies are the most competitive. Are we talking footslogging, mech, and what are some units/models in armies that are just too good not to take?
Just off the top of my head:
- Vulkan-based Vanilla Space Marines. <200pt HQ who twin-links all Melta/Flamer weapons and Thunder Hammers.
- Space Wolves have some nasty tricks. 4 Rune Priests (Librarians) are possible. Triple Long Fangs are popular (eg. 12 Missile Launchers able to split to 6 targets).
- Chaos SM with 2 x Slaanesh Daemon Princes with the 'Lash of Submission' power (lets you move an opponent unit). Sprinkle to taste with Vindicators.
- Eldar Jetbike Seer Council
- Ork Nob Bikers
- Space Marine Razorback spam (Lascannon/Twin-Linked Plasmagun config is popular). You can wedge about 10-15 into 1500pts depending on which SM Codex you use.
- IG Melta/Autocannon spam
- Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield Terminators (Shield now gives 3+ Invul save)
Generally, the game in 5th edition has moved to favour the MSU (multiple small units) concept. You generally take so many units that your firepower base is split evenly, and thus you deny your opponent effective target priority. Space Wolves do this particularly well with Razorbacks, because they have access to very cheap flexible units which they can spam repeatedly. Mechanised is by far the most popular way to field armies due to the new Vehicle Damage Table (vehicles cannot be destroyed on a glancing hit). This single change also nerfed the whole Necron army book.
You will also generally find that older armies are unable to play as competitively as they once did, because they do not have access to cheap transports or are unable to field large enough amounts of anti-transport firepower.
Mech is king - footslogging usually is made of fail. Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Vanilla marines all do mech very well, as do IG (they can field something crazy like 18 tanks in a standard FOC)
Any army built correctly can win, except 2nd and 3rd edition codices. Eldar, Orks, Chaos and Tau, whilst being 4th ed, can still pack a major punch, depending on which list you use. In my opinion, the hardest armies to beat are: Tyranids, Imperial Guard and Space Wolves. Nids can horde, multi-wound and MC in one list, Guard can field 9 Leman Russ in one FOC and Wolves are probably the best MEQ around.
@realitycheque, I do believe that Guard could field 59 tanks in a single FOC (two HQ, three Elite, 36 Troops, nine Fast Attack and nine Heavy Support)
Space Marines: 4,000pts - 7/7/2
Imperial Guard: Under Construction...
Nids are just fine, and did not get 'nerfed' as some suggest. They just have to be played differently now, and some people refuse to change their old strategy, and lose because of it. Basically, the only people who say they're bad now are people who either don't know how to play them, or refuse to change their 4th edition strategies.
Ravendove is correct on all counts, especially that being mechanized is very important. You either need that, or the ability to outflank or deepstrike. You can't really win, otherwise.
All I can add is that Nidzilla still works very well (especially with Tervigon/Trygon spam, but not with Carnifexes or Lictors), Imperial Guard Ordnance/template/blast filled lists are incredibly effective, and certain Chaos Daemon lists do quite well (mainly ones that focus on heralds of tzeentch w/bolts of change, tons of fiends, and pimped out daemon princes).
"Any job worth doing, is worth doing with a powerklaw."
All of the codices (except Daemonhunters and Dark Angels) are capable of building very effective lists. The only difference in using an updated 5th-Edition codex is that they tend to have many more viable builds available. So whereas Dark Eldar, Necrons, Tau, and Witchunters have just one competitive build with very minor variations, the Imperial Guard can pump out many more. Such as:
Offensive (All-Tank) Mech
Defensive (Artillery) Mech
Defensive Foot with loads of Heavy Weapons
Offensive Close-Combat Foot led by Strakken
Air Cav (6 Valkyrie/Vendetta Skimmers with Vets inside)
And all the minor variations and mash-ups thereof.
Blood Angels can pump out a fair number of builds too:
MSU (Multiple Small Unit) Razor/Pred Spam
Assault Marine Drop Army
Sanguinary Guard Spam
Assault Termies with Feel No Pain
And such forth. It's really about choice more than power. Unlike Fantasy, where certain army books are (were?) auto-win over others.
Last edited by SandWyrm; October 4th, 2010 at 22:55.
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Which is sad for a 5th Ed codex. Their recent FAQ even Nerfed an entire build (Drop Nids) as a viable competitive option.
Last edited by SandWyrm; October 4th, 2010 at 23:03.
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