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  1. #1
    Son of LO andrewbeater's Avatar
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    Games Workshop dump thread

    I've been apart of some threads where people really rip on Games workshop for either their business model, their target customers or something like that. I'd like to know from everyone, do you think that Games Workshop have a problem with the way they do business with 40K or are you one that think everything is A-Ok? To me, there are a few problems that need to be addressed: 1) They need to switch to plastic models just for the fact they are cheaper and easier to assemble, 2) They need value packs in every army, 3) They need a Battleforce starter kit for each army 4) They need to realize that the price of their models are too high compared to some other types of table top miniature games. When I started 40k a year ago, a Soul Grinder had just gone from $65 cdn to $69 cdn. Now it's $75 cdn. If the prices keep up the same way, I will be priced out of playing the game in just a few years. To help, GW should have value packs and Battleforces in every army to get people started. More sets like Battle for Black Reach should be available. Also, I started playing a different tabletop miniature game with plastic resin space ships and they seem to be dirt cheap compared to GW models. Anyway that's the way I see it, you may have a different take on things.


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  3. #2
    Member Vazzaroth's Avatar
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    In my opinion GW is both a horrible and great company.
    They seem to be (and parade around as such) a big company with lots of resources and people working for them. But then the products they actually release and the timeframe of them is Lousy at best. Basically, I think they just need more. Their hobbies have grown to a worldwide audience but their business plans and operations have not kept up. Sure they've got the supply aspect fairly covered it seems, but taking 5-6 months to update a single codex (Esp. just up a single edition) is RIDICULOUS. The fact that they regularly update their core rules before releasing all the army rules for that edition is simple unacceptable, to me. At the very least they should have comprehensive online updates (The FAQs they have now is a step in the right direction, but not nearly close enough) for older codices if they are worried about printing new books for just a few changes. Codices should primarily be for army background and tactics or painting guides. The actual crunch of each army SHOULD be widely available for free (Or included in the cost of the hobby, like the reference section at the back of the core books that gets outdated as soon as a new codex is released) and the codices just for tabletop reference.
    I mentioned it before in one of your other threads, andrew, but I'll say it here for discussion purposes. GW should NOT be making models and books, IMO. I feel the game would grow significantly faster if they stuck to writing the actual game rules and focused on tightening those up and updating as much as possible and had their model division completely separate. When I hear them talk about not wanting to update the Dark Eldar codex because it meant making a host of new models.... Well that's Bullshit to me. That sounds like an excuse, honestly. Players will proxy or use old models to play, what we want is RULES. I do believe that EVENTUALLY they need to put out models for every codex option (Another issue I have is when they have weapon upgrades for a whole squad but the kit only has, like, 1. But that's a whole nother thing I could get into.) but they do not need to release at the same time as a codex. Holding back a book because a bunch of sculpted and mass produced plastic models take longer to make is the worst idea they've ever had. I Fully support making some armies non-tournament legal for a time until their models actually came out if they took this advice.
    It comes down to this: They come off as if they take their time and make sure everything is perfect and thats why the releases are so slow... but they are far,far, EXTREMELY FAR from the product I would expect after such a long development time. Wizards is cranking out DnD books every MONTH that have better balancing, more readability, and are easier to use, not to mention about the same price for a hardcover, much longer book as it is for a floppy codex. (Luckily they ARE improving the thickness with the few recent ones that have released).
    Finally, if they can't keep up with this many armies and/or games, cut some. Simple as that. I hate to say that, but it's the reality. Cut your product and deliver something you can be proud of, or expand your business to keep up with your demands.
    Bottom line is that we overpay way too much to be dissatisfied with what we get.

    Anyway, all that aside, they have done alot for tabletop gaming in alot of ways and overall have been a positive influence on all similar hobbies, but I feel that they still have all that awkward teenager gawkiness well into their adult life as a business that they should have grown out of 10+ years ago, and I seriously wonder if the "big picture" types there have critically looked at the way they operate.

    Good, now I won't have to post that rant randomly in some offtopic thread!
    Last edited by Vazzaroth; November 23rd, 2010 at 10:05.
    I am verbose. Sorry.
    Current Armies:
    Kargh's Wite Butz, Death Skullz Orks: W: 5, L:, 2 D:2; Silver-skull Necrons: 1W 1L,500 pt

  4. #3
    The Future realitycheque's Avatar
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    I'll just address one or two of your points
    Quote Originally Posted by andrewbeater View Post
    1) They need to switch to plastic models just for the fact they are cheaper and easier to assemble
    For small quantities, plastic is proportionally more expensive to manufacturer. You'd be paying similar, if not greater, prices for the blister stuff as plastic moulds are expensive to make. Metal moulds are relatively cheap and last ages. I agree plastic is better to work with, but I'd rather have an £8 metal model than a £12 plastic one. Eventually I imagine they'll shift everything over to plastic but as the model has to be designed from scratch to fit on a sprue it takes time.
    2) They need value packs in every army, 3) They need a Battleforce starter kit for each army
    Which armies are missing them? Only daemons IIRC...
    4) They need to realize that the price of their models are too high compared to some other types of table top miniature games. When I started 40k a year ago, a Soul Grinder had just gone from $65 cdn to $69 cdn. Now it's $75 cdn. If the prices keep up the same way, I will be priced out of playing the game in just a few years.
    You're being stuffed by import taxes. It's nowhere near that bad in the UK.
    More sets like Battle for Black Reach should be available.
    Box sets with 2 different armies in don't help unless you know someone who collects the other army.
    Also, I started playing a different tabletop miniature game with plastic resin space ships and they seem to be dirt cheap compared to GW models. Anyway that's the way I see it, you may have a different take on things.
    What's the quality like? Same as GW? (i.e. mostly good with the odd bit of poor casting)
    My Deathwatch Campaign
    Furious Angels: (SM) W22, D1, L9 (BA) W15, D0, L3 | Sentinels of Saphery (HE) W3, D0, L0

  5. #4
    Junior Member A.T.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by realitycheque View Post
    Which armies are missing them? Only daemons IIRC...
    Both inquisition forces, templars, daemons. Plus blood angels and dark eldar temporarily.

    As for ranting, they do seem to trip over their own rules all of the time. Warlock powers that are 'kind of' psychic powers, mawlocs conflicting with deepstriking rules, special rules applied to models or squads (i.e. commissar lords with cloaks, DE characters with harlies), what is and isn't a daemon, what is and isn't a flame weapon (yes technically you can kill an avatar with a hand flamer), and so on and so forth.

  6. #5
    Son of LO andrewbeater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by realitycheque View Post
    I'll just address one or two of your points

    For small quantities, plastic is proportionally more expensive to manufacturer. You'd be paying similar, if not greater, prices for the blister stuff as plastic moulds are expensive to make. Metal moulds are relatively cheap and last ages. I agree plastic is better to work with, but I'd rather have an £8 metal model than a £12 plastic one. Eventually I imagine they'll shift everything over to plastic but as the model has to be designed from scratch to fit on a sprue it takes time.

    That is only on smaller models then; when Pink Horrors, Bloodcrushers and Daemon Prince went to plastic they were cheaper and had more bits in a pack. I wasn't aware that single smaller units could be cheaper to produce, since plastic is generally cheaper to make than metal.

    Which armies are missing them? Only daemons IIRC...

    Refer to A.T.'s answer. Daemons don't not have a Battleforce and that is the one I'm talking about. Plus, I think we need MORE value packs such as what they tried to do with the Bloodcrushers pack; they switched from metal to plastic and then offered more in a pack.

    You're being stuffed by import taxes. It's nowhere near that bad in the UK.

    You are probably right, the prices are only slightly better in the United States. I just checked our current exchange rate and the price of a Soul Grinder: In Canada he is $74.50 in the UK converted to Canadian dollars, he is $60.25. The exchange rate on a British Pound to a Canadian Dollar is 1.62 to 1. Since you are right about shipping, should GW look to produce some models in North America?

    Box sets with 2 different armies in don't help unless you know someone who collects the other army.

    Well, my kids broke into the 40K game by buying 2 Black Reach sets. One kid got all the Orks and one got all the Marines. Kids in our Hobby Shop go in together and buy that set all the time and just split the models. It's more effective than you think.

    What's the quality like? Same as GW? (i.e. mostly good with the odd bit of poor casting)
    Quality is excellent and I mean excellent. I've never seen any poor casting and all the models are either plastic resin, metal or both. Most ships are one piece and only some of the bigger ships have assembly. You can drop most of these models and they don't break. Sorry, I have seen one bigger ship chip from being dropped because of the thin fin on the back of the ship.

  7. #6
    The other Kind of Fluff Rabbit's Avatar
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    There's really only two chief issues I have with Gamesworkshop:

    1) Complete incomprehension on rules clarity. A company their size should have figured this out by now. Both MTG and D&D are decent examples of how to take a complicated system and make a clear set of rules.

    2) Communication with their community. If GW raises their prices, then posting the reason on their site would alleviate much of the customer frustration. I've actually written them about this, and they notified me that their attorneys think it best to avoid public disclosure of too much information. Go figure...
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  8. #7
    Son of LO andrewbeater's Avatar
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    I certainly have the feeling GW cares only for their bottom line and not about their customers. I think any successful company learns to care about both. I've emailed GW Canada twice with no response. Satisfied and happy customers buy more merchandise. Look at me, I hate that GW have neglected the Necrons to date. In response, I will not buy any models anymore until they show the Necrons some love. I don't understand how any company with a game like this which is ever changing and evolving could let an army go like the Necrons. And they aren't fixing them any time soon, they are going to put out a Grey Knights codex first. Crazy.

  9. #8
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    Price would be my biggest gripe. When I last played eldar warlocks were £4 for 2 not bad. However they are now £8.50 for 1! And its still the same bloody model 12 years on!!!

  10. #9
    Senior Member Gedderz's Avatar
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    I think the reason for the lack of communication for pricing is because no one would like the answer. Where profiteering because its a niche market which is inelastic so basically we bump up price but our sales dont suffer much because of it. Please no example of people been put off by hobby etc because of the prices the evidence is there to support what I said in the company reports.

    However I do strongly believe that GW need to be much more in touch with their customers, and a lot of there practises are just woeful. I think they really need an operations strategy rethink and they can reduce costs and meet customer’s needs i.e. more quickly updated codex’s. However don’t forget they could also get moaned at for updating too much and people constantly cashing out to keep pace.
    "Should take you a while though because of your sloth like pace"
    Click here and watch Gedderz try and cross the road

  11. #10
    Double Clutching Weasel Klajorne's Avatar
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    I've always viewed GW as being a miniature company that creates some pretty awsome fluff. As an aside, they also produces rules for a wargame so you can use cool little dudes with their awsome fluff. I'm not sure if GW intends to be a real gaming company or not, but they don't do a very good job at it.

    I do think that if GW intends to develop to that next stage and be successful, they need to find someone else to back them. I remember when D&D was bought by Hasbro, and I remember the apprehension that went with it. But I think it was one of the best things that happened to that hobby. D&D was (and still is) the mainstream rpg. Not only did the quality of the books increase, but it lost a lot of the negative connotations that were associated with it. I think a similar experience for GW would do it some good.

    As for the price changes... I hear about them all the time, and I can't help but think they're all "back in my day candy only cost a penny" stories. Sure, models were cheaper back in the mid-90's, but the value of a dollar isn't worth the same today as it was back then. Back in the 90's, video games only cost a quarter as well. Following inflation (in the US), buying something for $35 today is about the same as paying $25 back in 1995. We tend to forget about things like that when we remember how things were "back in our day".

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