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  1. #1
    Senior Member rtsposer's Avatar
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    Dark angels scouts

    Right now my scout army has 3 small squads that routinly die whenever i play (it doesn't help that i have onlyed had a chance to play against space marines...)

    I want advice on what to get and how to equip my scouts to be a cheap army that has battle potential. For my scout army i am only feilding "themed" units, that is scouts and mobile HQ and tanks. No terminators, dreadnoughts, landspeeders, attack bikes. Its also a dark angels army for the record.

    So far this is what I have:

    HQ:
    1 Master w/ powerfist & bolter, iron halo, artificer armour.

    Command squad:
    Sergeant w/ power weapon & termy honors
    Techmarine w/ paired lightning claws, servo arm, termy honors
    Apothecary w/ Dual bolt pistols (counts as one close combat weapon and one bolt pistol), narthecieum, termy honors
    Plasma Gun marine

    HQ and command squad mounted in a RazorBack w/ extra armour, twin lascanons


    Scout squad 1, Close combat:
    Veteran deathwing sergeant, power weapon & boltpistol
    4x standard close combat scouts.
    all with frag gernades

    Scout Squad 2, shooters:
    1 veteran sergeant w/ stormbolter, auspex
    2 bolter scouts
    2 shotgun scouts
    all with krack gernades (tank hunters)

    Scout squad 3, Snipers:
    1 standard sergeant
    1 heavy bolter
    6 snipers


    These scouts can be reassigned to new squads... Here is what i am eventually planning to add to them to fill out my army:

    Heavy support:
    2x Predator destructors, lascannon sponsions, extra armour, dozer blade
    Whirlwind (stock)


    Additional close combat scouts:
    including existing troops, i want 15 close combat scouts in 2 squads, one of 7, one of 8. Both with veteran deathwing sergeants w/ power weapons.
    frag gernades

    Additional Shooters:
    In the end, I want two 5-man squads of shooters, one with 3 bolters, 1 missle launcher, 1 sergeant. the second with 3 shotguns, 1 heavy bolter, 1 sergeant. Both sergeants are veterans with stormbolters and auspecies as well as melta bombs
    Krack gernades (tank hunters)

    Additional Heavy fire support (snipers):
    In the end, i want three 5-man sniper squads. all squads have 3 snipers, 1 regular sergeant. 2 squads have autocanons, the third has a missle launcher.


    Fast attack:
    4 scouts on bikes.


    Additional HQ:
    Chaplain w/ closecombat weapon, blades of reason.
    5-man command squad equiped for closecombat, termy honors where possible.

    Existing HQ ammendment:
    replace, or alternate, existing master with a different master with power weapon, artificer armour, Storm sheild.


    Possible elites:
    I want to look into the possibility of using deathwatch spacemarines mounted in a rhino if possible (don't have there rules yet...)


    I know i didn't list the points for anything, but what do you think in general? When i have played so far, my scouts have fared fairly well in close combat, their real weakness is their poor armour save in shooting (armour save isn't as big an issue in close combat for some reason, if nothing else i at least take them down with me it seems). The heavy weapons i'm putting in the shooter squads are for fire support and anti-tank use, other wise i intend to keep the shooters moving towards tanks with krak gernades in hand, for the most part they are stock units and not good for much else unless used in large numbers.

    The snipers are a paradox for me. In theory, I love the concept of sniping, its an elegant means of combat from my point of view. In practice scout snipers on the 40k battle feild only attrack enemy close combat units and fast attack units. Snipers are always meant as a psychological weapon in real combat and they seem to draw enemy fire in this game from a similar mentality. I'm sticking autocannons and a missle with them since they won't ever move and have range. basically my snipers are ineffective except for heavy weapons and drawling attension from the enemy.

    The heavy support is another conundrum for me. To me at least, it feels like my troops would avoid engaging enemy troops and move against other targets like enemy armour and HQ. For this reason it seems like i am relegating MY armour to anti personel roles with the ability to defend from enemy armour. An alternate tank break down i considered is 1 predator destructor as mentioned, and a predator anihilator with heavy bolters. Possibly even make both anihilators with heavy bolters (except i REALLY like the autocannon model for the turret!).

    For the tanks, basically I don't know what role they should play. If they need to be anti-armour, then obviously lascannons all around, if anti personel, 6 heavy bolter slugs and 2 autocannon shells could potentially half a squad's sterength every turn. Maybe one of each? But i am also looking for conformity as well. And i really don't want to use the twin lascannon turret if possible, even though it seems the best balance is a pair of anihilators with heavy bolters. Maybe i should compromise, equip them with heavy bolters, and buy extra turret sprues so i can swap out turrets for which ever is more appropriate?

    Also, I've never used bikes before, should i even bother with the bikes???


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  3. #2
    Member night_goblin01's Avatar
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    Thing with a scout army they act as an infiltrater army so you shouldn't really take any thing like tanks and the less power armour the better, ok so you have to have some power armour in your army (HQ) but you wanna leave it at that use diffrent types of scouts squad like a whole squad of snipers, and a make sure you have a few squads with heavy weapons, Don't ever have a dread nought in a scout army as it ruins the whole stealthy feel.

    As for them being DA you vet. sqt can choose up to 100pts of war gear so you can give them power weapons. an DA green goes great when you pain the combats in camo!

    I think its about time chapter approved done some scout army rules.

  4. #3
    Senior Member rtsposer's Avatar
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    I get what your saying about the tanks, and to be honest i totally agree.

    The Only problem is that my other options for heavy support, other than tanks, are devistator squads. Well, according to the chapter roster i can't have devistator squads (there in the battle companies and the 9th as well, not the tenth).

    Since i am mounting my HQ in razorbacks, under the guise of mobility to keep up with the scouts, as well as a mobile command and control node, i figure once i start using tanks, i might as well embrace them all together, within limit.

    Scout heavy weapons, well when i have used them they suck. My snipers always seem to die first and everyone else is in constant motion so heavy weapons aren't an option for them (move or fire). The only reason i want heavy weapons in non-sniper squads is on the off chance i am presented with a target of oppertunity. But for the most part my heavy scout weapons won't be used if not part of a sniper squad. (this is also my reasoning for more and smaller sniper squads, for more heavy weapons.)

    I can make the tanks work theme-wise i think. I know it makes little sense, but it makes more sense than feilding devistators or terminators or dreadnoughts etc.

    If you have suggestion, tactics wise, on how to make scout heavy weapons work please share, but I can't think of a way to make a viable army without tanks (a reflection of my own poor tactical skills, then again i have yet to win with my scouts so far anyway...)

  5. #4
    Senior Member LRSeriesIII's Avatar
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    I honestly think a few tanks make perfect sense fluff wise. Most modern military forces have some armored reconassaince units. The biggest thing that is going to set a recon type force apart from a regular force is not going to be their ability to silenty sneak past their enemies (after all, when you're talking about battlezones which could be hundreds of square miles, you can just go around them and so forth), but their ability to act independently of the main force, both from a combat stand-point and a logistics stand-point. The avoiding enemy contact part would come more from keeping the force size low and from keeping away from enemy forces.

    In this type of role, some sort of mechanized support would be ideal. The commander is going to need a command post that he can coordinate all of his scattered scouts from, so that is going to necessitate a razorback command vehicle. Since he'll be in a mobile vehicle instead of a something like a small camoflagued bunker he will be able to move to keep the enemy from getting a fix on his position and attacking him. The preds could be very capable as support vehicles for the scouts, backing them up with a little firepower while staying extremely mobile. As long as they're well camoflagued and have enough equipment to operate independently for extended periods of time, I don't see why that wouldn't work.

    You have to keep in mind what you are thinking of as the role of a reconnasaince force. Sneaking behind enemy lines, accomplishing covert missions in the enemies rear, and so forth is really a job for individual scout squads, and frankly isn't even a good use of them, since you could just teleport a terminator squad or two in to do the same job, not have to wait for them to sneak in, and be able to recover them safely immediately after they have accomplished their mission. A real scout army would fulfill more of a screening reconnasince role. Out in front of the main force, checking the lines of advance for the rest of the army and informing them of any enemies along their route so they aren't taken by surprise. This role doesn't require as much stealth (though that is good, especially things like basic camoflague) as it does the ability to deploy in a very spread out fashion and for squads and units to act completely independently. If they do engage, it would probably be to "fix" the enemy in a certain position, not really fully engaging, but just enough to keep their enemy from moving until the main force can be brought to bare.
    "Don't Delay-The best is the enemy of the good. By this I mean that a good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan next week. War is a very simple thing, and the determining characteristics are self-confidence, speed, and audacity. None of these things can ever be perfect, but they can be good."
    -General George S. Patton, Jr.

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    i have to agree with what LR said. just one thing, make all the heavy weapons you have in your scout squads rocket launchers- effective against troops both hvy and light armoured and effective against all but the most heavily armoured tanks which can be dealt with by grenades and powerfists.

  7. #6
    Son of LO BorninDarkness's Avatar
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    If you want to go with the reconnaissance vehicles thing, you might consider using predators with Lascannon turrets, but without sponsons. After all, they're reconnaissance vehicles so should be moving around a lot to keep up with the rest of the scout army, so sponsons would be ineffective. The white scars don't use sponsons on their preds for this exact reason.
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  8. #7
    Senior Member LRSeriesIII's Avatar
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    If you want to go with the reconnaissance vehicles thing, you might consider using predators with Lascannon turrets, but without sponsons. After all, they're reconnaissance vehicles so should be moving around a lot to keep up with the rest of the scout army, so sponsons would be ineffective. The white scars don't use sponsons on their preds for this exact reason.
    I would actually go with autocannons. If you look at modern armored recce vehicles (the M3 Armored Cavalry Vehicle and the Marine's Light Armored Vehicle), at least in the US, you usually find a 25mm automatic cannon. It can penetrate armor, but the idea is versatility and support of the recon force against other light troops rather than taking on tanks. Remember, the main force is used for taking on the enemy, you're just trying to find them and get out alive, maybe pin them in place for a little bit. For that the versatility and rapid fire of an autocannon, in my opinion, trumps the anti-armor punch of the lascannons.

    Also, while removing the sponsons makes sense for a fast attack force, this doesn't strike me as a fast attack force. Most of the scouts are on foot, and the total force, if it is screening the main force, can't move and faster than the main force, as if it does it runs the risk of being cut off and destroyed by the enemy's main force. The sponsons offer a limited ability to operate independently of other supporting units because it can have a more versatile armament (perhaps an annihilator with heavy bolters or a destructor with lascannons?), and one which can put out more fire in self defense without having to call in supporting units (which may not be available).
    &quot;Don&#39;t Delay-The best is the enemy of the good. By this I mean that a good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan next week. War is a very simple thing, and the determining characteristics are self-confidence, speed, and audacity. None of these things can ever be perfect, but they can be good.&quot;
    -General George S. Patton, Jr.

  9. #8
    Senior Member rtsposer's Avatar
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    well. I already got one and put an autocannon and heavy bolters on it. I'm gonna wait and see how it plays before buying another.

    I REALLY want 2 identically equiped preadtors whose only differences are articles of 'character' and the numbered decal i use.

    I can get a predator without sponsons for $32, not much of a savings really, and all i need from the dumb landraider C sprue is the hatch cover...

    And i really think a whirlywind would go well with my army for some reason.


    I have this odd suspicion that despite common sense i will end up having in the end 2 destructors w/ hvy bolters, and 1 whirlywind. Odd that my force will probably be more tank heavy then most marine deployments... (almost everyone i have played takes devistators)

  10. #9
    Senior Member rtsposer's Avatar
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    oh well, one mustn't (is that a real word?) take fluff too serioously i suppose. and then their is the tried and true meathod 'if it looks cool, go for it'

  11. #10
    Senior Member LRSeriesIII's Avatar
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    oh well, one mustn't (is that a real word?) take fluff too serioously i suppose. and then their is the tried and true meathod 'if it looks cool, go for it'
    Yeah, it's a word, well, a contraction...
    I still say it works in fluff! Of course then I'm an armored cav fan...
    &quot;Don&#39;t Delay-The best is the enemy of the good. By this I mean that a good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan next week. War is a very simple thing, and the determining characteristics are self-confidence, speed, and audacity. None of these things can ever be perfect, but they can be good.&quot;
    -General George S. Patton, Jr.

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