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  1. #1
    Member Governor-Militant Vespa's Avatar
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    Daemon-primarchs... bad upbringing or malevolence?

    Ah... another question that really intrigues me about 40k fluff is the fall of half of the primarchs to Chaos that led eventually to the Istvaan massacre, the Horus Heresy and the rise of the Chaos Space Marines as the harbingers of the Dark Gods.

    Looking back at the original primarchs, it is easy to observe that some had glorious reputations (Horus and Fulgrim were among these), while others were held in contempt by their gene-brothers and even sometimes by the Emperor Himself. Looking at some of these cases:
    - Alpharius of the Alpha Legion was constantly at odds with Roboute Guilliman, resenting the fact his brother challenged him at every turn, constantly reminding him his "younger" legion could never hope to attain the Ultramarines' battle records and honours.
    - Konrad Curze, the Night Haunter and master of the Night Lords, and Mortarion, primarch of the Death Guard, were percieved more as freaks than fellow warriors. Curze's vigilante tactics and horrible appearance and Mortarion's tendencies and size did not fit in well with the rest of their brothers.
    - Perturabo of the Iron Warriors was constantly sent into siege lines and trench wars, the bloodiest and most ungrateful battefields. His legion was divided and forced to serve as siege specialists, defending key positions through sheer resilience. Even so, not once was he lauded equally to the exploits of other primarchs such as Guilliman and Dorn.
    - Lorgar of the religious Word Bearers was raised among monks and priests during his youth, making him into a devoted and ever-faithful leader. His religious obsession with divinizing the Emperor made him clash with his father many times, since he did not wish to be the center of a cult.
    - Magnus the Red, cyclopian leader of the Thousand Sons, was shunned for his use of the arcane arts and sorcery. These facts were true and restricted by the Emperor and thus attracted his wrath. Yet, when Horus began to fall to Chaos and Magnus warned his father by means of sorcery, the God-Emperor himself could not see through his hatred of eldritch powers and had Magnus' homeworld of Prospero burned by the Space Wolves.

    After this reflexion, I leave once again the discussion in your hands, fellow fluffers. The daemon-primarchs, ugly ducklings of the Imperium?

    What do Khorne Berzerkers say to Necrons after chopping some of their bits off? "BLOOD FOR... Eh? Come on! You just take the fun out of it... Scream! Yell! Awww... not even a trace of guts..." *sniffles and kicks dirt*

    "You can go far with a smile. You can go even further with a smile and a gun"

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  3. #2
    Son of LO ze_poodle's Avatar
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    Two of those aren't Daemon-Primarchs. In fact, two of them are dead, though one arguably so. Also, you forgot Angron.

    As for them being ugly ducklings...is that not the entire point of the Heresy? That there were a few bad eggs? They've all got tragic origin stories. It's the only way to make them sympathetic and their treachery understandable. If it was just "Angron woke up one day and realised that he really got a kick out of killing stuff, and would like to continue doing so in a less restrictive manner," then we can't really get any sense of narrative irony.

    If you ask me, Magnus was the worst done by of the lot. Don't trust that Sabretooth shite. Magnus tried to warn the Emperor - which was the wrong thing to do, but he didn't know that - and the next thing you know Leman Russ is eating his face.

    Also I liked Konrad. Because he had the best literary reference.
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  4. #3
    Member Scion of Chemos's Avatar
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    I tend to agree with you. So far as I know, Fulgrim and Horus revolted because of pride and envy. They also considered themselves betrayed by the Emperor when he wentured back to the Earth.

    As for the other ones, the "Ugly ducklings" so to speak, they probably felt the contempt and disrespekt from their fellow Primarchs to such a grade that the Heresy seemed like a perfect moment to went their frustration and rage. A moment to show the "dandys" who was making the real progress, and the real work.
    Many of the Primarchs you mentioned had forsaken the pride and the pompous parades and uniforms for efficiency. They where more "less talk, more action" kind of guys.
    But non the less, they where outcasts within the brotherhood.

  5. #4
    I Expect the Inquisition RecklessFable's Avatar
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    With respect to Magnus, the new series make mention that The Emperor ordered Russ to bring Magnus to Terra. Horus, however, somehow manipulated the easily enraged Russ into attacking, instead.

    Thre is a little Retconning going on with the fluff.

    At any rate, a Nature vs. Nurture discussion with respect to the Primarchs is kinda challenging since they very well could have been built to "be that way". Yo uhave to make some fundamental assumptions in your arguement.

    For example, is a soul, at inception, a blank slate? But honestly, that kind of thing is too big for this conversation. Suffice it to say, mistakes were made, the galaxy footed the bill.
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  6. #5
    Member Governor-Militant Vespa's Avatar
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    Yes... well... Angron heh, just about the biggest psychopath in the whole history of the Space Marines but hey, blame those gladiator aggression implants >.>. And I apologize for the title/contents mishap, it is true that 2 of the rebel primarchs are dead, my bad . And Fulgrim is possessed, but that's another story...

    Ah, to come on the point where Horus revolted, if you've read your fluff right, the chaplain of the Word Bearers had already given his allegiance to the Chaos Gods *before* Horus was wounded by a dagger (damn, I never seem to remember the names!) that carried the taint of th Dark Gods. The chaplain instigated this so the mark of the Ruinous Powers could be placed upon Horus' soul. Quite the stratagem really, because who would ever think of Horus as the betrayer? With subtle manipulation by Lorgar and his new converts, Horus began to resent the Emperor at first for "hogging HIS glory", which soon enough began to escalate into the story we all know and love .
    What do Khorne Berzerkers say to Necrons after chopping some of their bits off? "BLOOD FOR... Eh? Come on! You just take the fun out of it... Scream! Yell! Awww... not even a trace of guts..." *sniffles and kicks dirt*

    "You can go far with a smile. You can go even further with a smile and a gun"

  7. #6
    Senior Member Grand Master Belial's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Governor-Militant Vespa View Post
    Ah... another question that really intrigues me about 40k fluff is the fall of half of the primarchs to Chaos that led eventually to the Istvaan massacre, the Horus Heresy and the rise of the Chaos Space Marines as the harbingers of the Dark Gods.

    After this reflexion, I leave once again the discussion in your hands, fellow fluffers. The daemon-primarchs, ugly ducklings of the Imperium?
    Interesting analysis and I can see the effects of being downcast leading to their fall.

    - Alpharius for being annoying and not trying to show his efforts to earn the respect of the brothers through the combats they did take part. Alpharius would have been the Primarch that would have been able to effectively coordinate not only marines but non-marines equally as well. Not to mention his skills at infiltration while not honorable could easily have provided very useful intel to the Imperium as it expanded.

    - Night Haunter & Mortarion I can't say much.

    - Perturbo got caught up in being too specialized. With such a unique talent, he knew that he would get tapped to maximize his skill, whereas Guilliman, El'Johnson & Horus were masters of more generalized warfare and thus achieved more glory. The trouble though is that he had pride which led to his downfall. The only way to counter this would be to train marines to NOT be seige specialists and send them on different missions to build up the repretoir of his Legion in other respects. Since the Primarchs were 3rd in Command behind the Emperor and Horus, they had some command authority to send marines out to other planets for their own reasons.

    - Lorgar is a unique one where Religious Zeal blinded him to reason. Though how he got to be a Chronicler of Chaos is unkown to me. It could be that his following of the Emperor in order to chronicle his endeavors for later worship clued him into the Warp and by Chronicling how the Emperor tapped and molded the Eldritch enemies gave him the rough knowledge to create Canticles for using the Warp in Battle (the Book of Lorgar).

    - Magnus the Red just got too caught up in his obession with learning the secrets of the Warp to heed that the Emperor was trying to warn him that the Warp is too strong for any save the Emperor himself.

  8. #7
    Member Governor-Militant Vespa's Avatar
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    I've always had a soft-spot for Alpharius and his Alpha Legion though, they seemed like the most complete fighting force there could have been. Although many Space Marine chapters would shun the usage of infiltration and covert ops to the extent the Legionnaires made use of them, it only proves that Alpharius could see the bigger picture. As the Blood Ravens say: "Knowledge is power, hide it well!"

    I will concede that he did play out as the "little brother" primarch, constantly wanting for prove himself in the eyes of the Emperor and his fellow primarchs, hence the "annoying" theme.
    What do Khorne Berzerkers say to Necrons after chopping some of their bits off? "BLOOD FOR... Eh? Come on! You just take the fun out of it... Scream! Yell! Awww... not even a trace of guts..." *sniffles and kicks dirt*

    "You can go far with a smile. You can go even further with a smile and a gun"

  9. #8
    Son of LO ze_poodle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Governor-Militant Vespa View Post
    And Fulgrim is possessed, but that's another story...
    No. That is Sabretooth talking, and he speaks with the voice of lies, subterfuge and shady corruption. Fulgrim was never possessed. Saying "he got possessed" is like, the biggest cop-out in the history of retcons. It's like DC publishing a limited edition series where it turns out Batman's parents weren't murdered but they were actually robots, and his real parents are hiding in the Fortress of Solitude because they're afraid what Batman would think if he knew they were alive.

    Fulgrim = Not Possessed. He was just an arrogant dicky-poo.
    The above poster = Totally a member of the Fluff Masters Clan. Click here for fluff pwnage.

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  10. #9
    Member Governor-Militant Vespa's Avatar
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    Ok, ok! *cringes before the lexicanum-living ze_poodle*, Fulgrim's not possessed!

    What do Khorne Berzerkers say to Necrons after chopping some of their bits off? "BLOOD FOR... Eh? Come on! You just take the fun out of it... Scream! Yell! Awww... not even a trace of guts..." *sniffles and kicks dirt*

    "You can go far with a smile. You can go even further with a smile and a gun"

  11. #10
    Senior Member AlbinoAlien's Avatar
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    C'mon poodle! read the book man! i mean i know no one here wants to see Fulgrim possesed by wimpy demon (cept me, hes my lest favorite) but you gotta face the facts. The book Fulgrim goes into explicit details on how he felt and how he was possed/taken over by a demon. Poor Ferrus Manus...i miss you man!!
    http://www.librarium-online.com/foru...d.php?t=104497
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