Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
Hi, Shonathan Perrius. Semi new to the site. Kinda.
Any way, I had some half painted Ultramarine models and decided to take a different kind of leap with them. This may be fluffy or unfluffy.
Along with the similar but different paint scheme (You can find them on the Showcase) I named them the Harbingers of Ultramar. Since Harbinger practically means Messenger, that instead of being a completely new 2nd Founding Chapter, that it would be something completely different. The Ultramarines are a very glorified and famous Chapter much like the other remaining 1st Founding Chapters. Blood Angels and Dark Angels have their precious secrets that they keep dear, but I haven't found any Ultramarine secrets that are worth keeping a huge secret.
Some Scouts 'graduate' being Scouts and find their way to becoming Ultramarine Space Marines like the normal path to glory. However, some Scouts are very excellent at infiltrating and disguises but do not make the cut to becoming Ultramarines. Sadly, they won't get the honor and glory of serving any of the other Ultramarine Companies. These rare few (1 in 10 usually) will be forced into a secret Elite Company of the Ultramarines. Since Rogal Dorn is their Primarch and created the basic functions of the Codex Adeptus Astartes, it would be shameful to disregard their once and still great leader. A previous and old Scout Company leader took an oath to create and lead the new company at his own expense. Albeit, he did give up his honor to uphold the glory of Rogal Dorn, a fake execution was to eliminate him as a 'traitor.' Once in the shadows of Ultramar, he assembled a volunteer squad of scouts whom were also denounced to forcefully kidnap the extremely special scouts from the 10th Company. They of course had to be rejected Power Armour and access to any other Company first. Once there, they were promised Power Armour and given rightly so.
They were to be trained to become messengers of the Ultramarine Chapter Master (now of course Marneus Calgar.) and also to be used in missions to be held under cover and under wraps. For several hundred years, only the Ultramarine Chapter Masters and the Inquisition Alien Hunters knew of the Harbingers of Ultramar. Usually the Deathwatch would take volunteers from the Ultramarines, but they more often took the Harbingers because they had greater stealth and back-stabbing qualities with the qualities of a Space Marine. By mistake, a Harbinger Marine was mixed in a kill-team with an Ultramarine, and thus they were leaked. Despite their stealth adepts and killing abilities, they were shunned by Marneus Calgar (Mostly because he wanted to cover up the whole plot he knew of) but was not clear to the HoU that he would disband them. Exiled and alone, they suffer the mass quantities of troops that were supplied to them, and have to trade armour and weapons with suppliers around the universe. The Deathwatch continued to hire the HoU despite the setbacks. Because of their disruption from the Ultramarines Chapter, they could be more informally trained to become assassins and more stealthy than ever.
However, from the day they were inducted into the secret chapter all of the recruits knew that they would not have Glory from their almost founding chapter. They continued to wear the Ultra symbol in recognition of their origin but do not use banners to display their victories. They sneak, steal, and cheat in order to get victory and in some cases only to survive. Luckily with their genetic implants they can go weeks without nourishment, but their armour and weapons also need repair and ammunition.
That's all I have for right now, but I want to ask the fluff-heads about what they think . So far I like the idea, because it keeps me away from plasma guns...
It's iffy wiether or not such a thing could happen. The ultramarines typically have a rod so far up their "you-know-what" that they'd probably be against such an underhanded thing from the start. If you were to sever you chapter's past from the ultramarines and make them just an increadibly sneaky (see but don't be seen trait) chapter with the Ultramarine heritage then it's easily done. Maybe they're too sneaky and other groups don't trust them (we stand alone trait) that they have all the negatives you've pointed out.
Even in WH40K people don't trust the ultra-sneaky sneaky guys. Why do you think the inquisition takes so much flak.
'An open mind is like a fortress with its walls unguarded and its gates wide open' -Blood Ravens
I would agree that it probably wouldn't happen, but there are people on the site who know far more fluff than I do.
One thing though, is that you've got the primarch wrong - Dorn is the primarch of the Imperial Fists. The Ultramarines' primarch and writer of the Codex Astartes is Roboute Guillman.
Thou shalt remember:
Warhammer Fantasy armies do NOT have Codices. They have Army Books.
LINK - Guitarists of LO Group
Seconded that it's unlikely. Why would Guilemann use covert marines as messengers? Surely the person who received the message would know about them? That and the fact that astrotelepathy is so much more efficient. Messages can be sent millions of miles in the blink of an eye. Why waste time and resources jazzing up a much slower messenger who, due to the pitfalls of being an actual messenger, may not get there at all?
And the Deathwatch do not select Ultramarines because they're stealthy, otherwise they'd just co-opt the Raven Guard. They select them because they've been killing Tyranids for years. Stealth doesn't come into it. And the Deathwatch are under the command of an Inquisitorial ordo. If they started drafting in things from a secretive cadre of marines that shouldn't really exist wouldn't they ask serious questions? You seem to imply this in their "discovery", but you make it sound like the Deathwatch knowingly took on Harbingers for many years before the leak. It doesn't really work.
I like the secret society aspect of it, a lot. It also helps explain why they're not in the official fluff. Except that they seem to do a lot to contravene that secrecy.
Thanks for correcting me on the Primarchs. There's so many yet so few but all so confusing. They weren't created by Roboute Guillman in the first place, that's why its secret because he basically created the rules for 'vanilla' Marine armies. Ultramarines do have that stick up where we all know because he was their Primarch, and thus would honor him.
I do like the other idea much more of how they are the very hidden and completely separated chapter. In the novels with Uriel Ventris, he was exiled in the Second and Third book because of a daring but odd attack on a Tyranid Vessel. Perhaps instead of created for the Ultramarines that this dying company is rather Ultramarine Exiles (It's not too much unlike my first SM army to be honest). At least in that way and form they can still have allies, but they themselves fight to redeem their honor of the chapter. The only reason they keep the fluffy symbols of the Ultramarines is purely because of their origin. Either way, everyone will still hate them for doing something really pathetic or wrong to get exiled in the first place.
By messenger, I meant the Messenger of Death. It's not creating a second army to give a guy a piece of paper. Who would have the idea of sending a hole secret company to give a leaflet to a Planetary Governor? Point well taken =).
Btw, if I were to take the "We Stand Alone" trait to fill that fluff, can I still use Deathwatch veteran upgrades? Its not the Kill-team, but the optional upgrade that can go for HQ squads, Veteran Squads or Tactical Squads. Ideally, they are sneaky fellows, but it's not like inducting Grey Knights or Sisters of Battle instead their own veterans who've served in the Deathwatch. Despite the fact that many secret armies are hated, the Inquisitorial Sects still employ them. Rumor has it that the Inquisition even hires Kroot Mercenaries. (see Conquest of Armageddon by Jonathan Green for my reference.) Additionally, if they were exiled like the idea above, then they would have the abilities of Tyranid killers, just sneakier because they have limited resources, thus can't be deep striking into huge battles and so forth. Oh well, maybe that entire DW idea is sapped after all.
On another point, Inquisitors are interrogators. They ask questions even when they shouldn't, all for the sake of the Emperor. I think the Inquisition gets and gives an almost equal amount of flak. I mean, so many armies can lay waste to entire worlds and so they threaten the Inquisition. Yet the Inquisition looks at them and says one word: Exterminatus. To look at it another way, the Inquisition doesn't really trust the Black Templars because all the Crusade companies together almost make a legion, that is if they could all mash into one super force. Even though the BT are super super zealous, even the most zealous preachers become heretics in a flash. And besides, the Inquisitors have no care or sense of honor. If there is any reason to have doubt in someone's faith, they're as good as dead or repentant, which is also a leading cause to their demise. I'm sure that if the Deathwatch ever learned of a whole Space Marine Chapter was dealing with aliens (like Eldar, Orks, or Tau) that they would find a way to purge them as heretics as well because that's their job. I don't think there is too much difference between Witch Hunters and Alien Hunters. Targets are different, but the ways to destroy them aren't always different.
Well, that's my input. If i'm wrong at any level, feel free to let me know right away before I make a fool out of myself. I just want to back myself up a little bit, but I do like the criticism I've gotten. It's actually a great help for expanding my mind in the 40k universe.
For more information on inquisitors and to get an awesome sourcebook, read the Inquisitor game rulebook. The PDF version online misses out a lot of the fluff, but you get a good feel for how the Inquisition as a whole (if such a phrase isn't an oxymoron) works.
Well, first I want to point out that you are twisting my words in that one quote. I was not by any means saying that Space Marines can't fight aliens. That would destroy all fame that the Space Marines have. I was saying that if particular chapters were in league with aliens in a manner besides a last minute alliance to "live today, fight tomorrow" circumstance where both sides could be overpowered by a surprise enemy, such as the Necrons or Tyranids. What I meant is that if Space Marines were losing trust in the Emperor and their faith, thus using unlawful tactics to gain Alien technology, or crossing to other ideologies such as the Tau's Greater Good. In those circumstances, they would be targets of the Inquisition.
However, I do admit I was being very black and white about the Inquisition. In fact, I would expect that if a Inquisitor with the power of Exterminatus was over abusing his own powers that the rest of the Ordo's would strive to eliminate him for abuse. Only a extremely powerful Chaos Lord or Cultist would ever actually take world destruction on epic proportions.
Furthermore, I think that I should do a Second Founding Chapter like the Black Templars and Crimson Fists from the Imperial Fists. I don't think I have the proper education in this universe yet to argue their true origins if they were anything else. For right now until I've had enough time to think over my ideas, they should be a new founding chapter for the purpose of Alien Hunting (especially with the ever arising Tyranid threats) and study of Xenos Evolution tactics. Perhaps that would be a better start than a company that defies all logic within the Ultramarines. At least with that change I could keep the name too for the reason being they study and learn to adapt to alien evolution that they relay almost constant astropathic messages to their allies for future battles.
So if I scrap the first idea, any suggestions or comments for this one?
On the 'space marine chapters as dedicated alien hunters.' 3 words.. Tyrannic War Veterans..
The hellfire rounds they're issued with are a specialty of the Ordo Xenos, which probably means they've been granted access to them by one or more influential Ordo Xenos inquisitors. I don't see the deathwatch trying to kill them.
I didn't think your initial idea was completely bad.. Big chunks of it are feasible and kind of cool, though it possibly could have used some slight tweaking to make it a little less 'super-secret ninjas.'
Though, my personal feeling, if you want this to make the most sense and have an alien hunting focus.. Have them founded recently in response to the Tyrannic Wars and mentored by the deathwatch and Ultramarine veterans, so they're just crazily imbued with anti-xenos hatred, then have them go slightly out of control as their hatred leads them to do unorthodox things..
Again, slightly too black and white. The ordos are rough coalitions of inquisitors who hunt a similar foe, nothing really organised. There are inquisitors who have been members of ordos and since left them, changed ordos or simply never been a member of one. But yes, an inquisitor who was being too trigger-happy with exterminatus would be up for a fair bit of peer review, as it were. Where if you get bad marks it means a terminal end to your career (unless you can hide damn well).
And yes, that is a good starting point. I like the idea of having a particularly large number of astropaths, which would foster strong ties with the Adeptus Astra Telepathica and the Adeptus Mechanicus, making them quite a strong part of the Imperium generally.
I'd recommend having them somewhere in Segmentum Solar, as the latest Hive Fleet (Leviathan) surfaced there. It's marked on here if you want a location: http://www.darkmillennia.net/QuadrantMap_pages/GMap.htm
You could make it an unofficial, cabalistic sub-group in the Ultramarines Chapter that has dedicated itself to hunting aliens post-Behemoth, but is so vehemently fanatical about the bug-killing that they don't want to wait on orders from the Chapter Master. Like the secret warrior societies that the Legions had pre-Heresy. Without the Chapter Master's authority or knowledge, their existence becomes a lot more...secret. Because it would have to be. Am I making sense?
Okay. Tyrannic Wars end in Ultramar; Behemoth beaten. Calgar says "Good, let's regroup." A small percentage of Ultramarines, including a few command staff, think this is a little cowardly, especially given that every single Veteran in the Chapter got wiped out because of Calgar's battle plan. He ordered them to stay on the surface and defend the Monastery from the 'nids that got through the naval barricade, which they did, to the last man. These select few Ultramarines start, in their off-time, pursuing and hunting down possible alien leads and terminating them without the Chapter's authority - which is a big thing, because the Chapter wants squad X here fighting rebels on Planet Civil Unrest and squad X calls in a sicky (I know they can't do that, but there's always a Marine equivalent) and flies off to fight some leftover Genestealers on Planet Nowheresville. The few members of the in-group who know about it cover up the cabal's actions, but it's all very touchy and they're still new at it.
They get good at being sneaky real fast because they have to cover their tracks, and they start recruiting Scouts because they want the society to survive past their (very likely) deaths. Since the missions they go on are totally unofficial and actually constitute treason or at least disobedience, they're often cut off from supplies and reinforcements, and can't rely on a possible orbital bombardment to clean up their mess if they screw up.
I don't know. This sort of seems to fill what you want, and gets past the annoying "but why are they there?" problem that you seem to have. It keeps the secret-society theme and the "officially unofficial" special ops thing, because a couple of the Captains have been going beneath Calgar's authority by supporting the group - like the head of the CIA organising wet works in Iran without the President's knowledge or consent.
Oh yeah. Also, the Inquisition is a lot less powerful in practice than it is in theory. Like the United Nations Security Council. Oh, snap.
The above poster = Totally a member of the Fluff Masters Clan. Click here for fluff pwnage.
Come, sons of LO! Kneel before Poodle!
Mr_Wayne: "Some people believe that the World Eaters do not field any ranged weaponry. Those people often die at a distance."