Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
I just got a copy of the Apocalypse rulebook over the holidays, and was rather displeased with the allies matrix. The point of Apocalypse is to get all one's models on the table, and players who want to do this are going to anyway. Since the allies matrix holds no actual bearing on rules, is there any reason they didn't make it fit with the fluff? I was disappointed that they basically just lined it up the sides that are perceived as "good" vs. the sides that are "bad," when in the fluff the baddies often have just as many problems with each other as they do with the "good guys." The specific things I'm pointing to are that Necrons and Tyranids, fluff-wise, would never, ever ally with anyone. And if Necrons were to form some kind of an alliance, it would certainly not be with Chaos; Chaos and the C'tan do not mix. They could have taken actual fluff into account and done a page on how the Farsight enclaves are the unknowing pawns of the C'tan, or how the Tyranid Hive Mind is possibly the exiled, insane, and ever-hungry C'tan known as the Outsider, or how the Machine Spirit, deity of the Adeptus Mechanicus, is actually the Void Dragon.
Realistically, even in the most extreme circumstances, loyal Imperials would only ally with itself and, in very dire circumstances, Eldar, (besides Kroot or Blood Axe mercenaries) while Chaos would only ally itself with traitors from other races that have been swayed toward the ruinous powers (which cannot include Necrons, Tyranids, and as far as I know, Tau) or possibly Orks who have been duped, such as in Dawn of War. Other factions stand alone; Tau are just as zealous as Imperials, and would only ally themselves with those who have given themselves up to the greater good.
All-in-all I was just really disappointed by the Allies Matrix, even if it was just a half-page near the back, and probably had little thought put into it. Thoughts?
I think that it's pretty much been disregarded as junk. Thank goodness it has no actual effect on gameplay, it is very poorly put together. The nature of the 40K fluff does not give itself to that level of simplicity, as you have pointed out, and even at a simple level there are things that are just wrong with the matrix.
.....does this actually prove GW dosen't realise the complex plots they themselves have weaved for 40k? I don't know.....i just can't see why they made this...other then sheer ignorance of the fluff maze they've already created. (something tells me the BL writers didn't have much to do with this).
I was under the impression it was simple a PoS job meant to help fill up the Apocalypse section of the website. They do a lot of that. It's just common sense that certain armies won't ever work together, trying to slap an "A-OK" fluff band-aid on it isn't going to help it work any better.
"If you can wait til I get home, then I swear we can make this last."
I personally think suspending disbelief and saying 'okay, Eldar and the Imperium are both sort of similar, in that they value stability and oppose the destruction of the universe' and just using that as a pretext for a good game, works better than trying to come up with complicated and out there reasons why different armies can ally.
Now, personally, I don't have apocalypse or an army big enough to use it, but if there's one thing I get about the theme, it's about fun. It's a chance to drop the gritty micro-management element of the game, whip out all your models, use the insane forgeworld stuff you don't normally get a chance to whip out and generally just enjoy yourself.
Frankly, a lot of the game doesn't make sense as regards the fluff. Gamewise, 3 guardsmen can bring down a marine, fluffwise it should be in the tens or hundreds. Gamewise, the boltgun is an above average basic weapon.. Fluffwise it's the product of millenia of engineering and human ballistic science, and one of the most powerful weapons in the universe.
And I'm personally very glad that GW have refrained from shedding any light on the mysteries of the farsight enclave, the possibility of a C'tan on mars, or the nature of the hive mind. Some things deserve to be mysteries. In fact, most of the drama and interest in a story comes from the things which are kept hidden until the appropriate moment. I'm sure one day some foaming black library writer will throw something together and the mystery will be considered solved, then the subjects involved will lose a huge ammount of their character and become mind numbingly dull until someone makes up more mysteries for them. In the meantime, I say do what you want with those ideas, and cross your fingers the canonical 'truth' never arrives.
I know that the point of Apocalypse is to get our all your models. I was just saying they shouldn't have tried to justify alliances if it was conflicting with established fluff. They could have just left it at "make up a good story." Since the matrix has no actual effect on gameplay, that's pretty much what it was saying anyway.
The stories I suggested were just examples of "good stories" that have been hinted around at in publications and codices over the years. I was just trying to communicate that it would bother me if someone plopped down Necrons next to Chaos and did try to justify it.
Well... on one hand I go... zomg Chaos and Necrons do not mix! Bad GW!
On the other hand it could make for good story telling. I only see problems when people get cheesy, course you only need play them once if that.
I have in the works an Iron Hands chapter of Space Marines that will be working along side my Necrons in Apoc Battles. I have the story for it and even a bit of fluff from the Necron Codex to support the idea.
Chaos Marines are not always those guys that have been living in the warp for ten thousand years, they could just as likely be a chapter or smaller that just turned renegade and joined said faction.
The Ctan were worshiped before, its not a far reach for them to be worshiped again. I could easily see humans and possibly even Tau fall into this one. This is what I am playing on with my Apoc army is using an Iron Hands chapter that fell under the sway of the Machine God (the Dragon) and have fully allied up with an active Necron army.
Nids... Its possible that a Hive Fleet has changed its tactics a bit after losing a major engagement and decided to be a bit pickier with its food choices and even assist others in taking out what it considers a real threat. Maybe a faction has found a way to control a number of Nid forces.
My wife plays Sisters of Battle and she wants to incorporate Eldar into her Apoc Army. Her current story/idea is that the Sisters and Eldar have discovered a terrible threat that will require their combined forces to truly destroy. The Sisters feel it is the will of the Emperor while the Eldar follow whatever... they follow. meh.
Ya ok... went on a bit more than I meant to.
Tyranids + anyone not Necron = Mind controlling Ripper hats.
Tyranids + Necrons = Hive mind hack into sleeping Necrons and forces them to animate using tiny parasite bugs. Or Necrons have a Pylon that Blocks the Hive mind and generates a false Mind that tricks the bugs into doing what the Necrons want
Chaos + anyone not Grey Knight. They are chaos cult/possessed by daemons/are animated Zombies/Mutated version/ or whatever animates the Thousand Sons was cast on the Necrons
Chaos + Grey Knights: Super Spell of Trickery cast by Tzeentch himself! (gasp) causes the Knights to think they are fighting on the wrong side (probably pushing it)
Eldar + anyone. Eldar tricked them using fancy parlour tricks, and holofields
and so on..
Arch Overfiend & Grand Despot
I currently play:
Doom Eagle Space Marines
Hive Fleet Omega Tyranids
Goff Ork Boyz(dead)
Tau of O'me
Inquisitorial Xeno Hunters
and my attempted foray into fantasy
'Dark Angel Green' Dark Elves in need of fluff
oy! ORKY BOYZ follow dem's who give em a good fight! den we fight em too!
Vlor, when are you going to continue that impressive story? I remeber that great little piece you put out.