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Yes, well - this is yet another question by yours truly. Would it be possible, and more importantly HOW would a chapter bear traitor geenseed?
Bearing in mind it goes against official fluff, I believe the Blood Ravens are said to bear Thousand Sons' geenseed. (Though that's not the discussion I want to begin here).
How would, in any likely scenario. A Chapter be created using Traitor Geenseed? And I mean, a loyal Chapter. Such as the Blood Ravens for instance.
10th Lyran tells me the official fluff states it was all destroyed. But he has an idea on how this is possible, I'll have him post his theory.
Anyway, please give me your ideas, scenarios and the like.
I imagine by 'traitor geneseed' you mean geneseed from the traitor primarchs? I dunno.. Your best bet I think would be some wierd experiment during the cursed or dark founding, the records of which were then lost.. Horus is probably the most likely candidate, as he's probably the most fascinating to Inquisitors and other high ranking types who might be able to get the resources together for this kind of wierd experiment, plus he's dead, which removes the risk of any sympathetic link..
That's the main problem with the whole idea, really.. If that primarch fell to chaos, can you really take the risk that some element of weakness might be passed through the geneseed? This kind of 'purity eugenics' thing seems quite a big part of the Imperium, if you fall to chaos, or heresy, it's because you're fundamentally weak. Something about you was flawed, and that flaw needs to be kept from contaminating others.
But that doesn't mean there might not be someone crazy enough to try..
Well one thing Mantis old friend is you read my mind. I was thinking of Horus really more than any other Traitor Primarch. - And about what you said about the Inquisitor, yes, that thought had also come to mind. Seeing as Lyran isn't here yet, I'll post what he said to me on AIM earlier:Since as far as I can remember the Chapters need to tithe their geenseed to the Inquisition or something or other.Originally Posted by 10th Lyran
It might be somewhat simple in a way. As I understand it, not 100% of each traitor legion turned from the Emperor.
The answer could be just that, some of the marines that escaped were allowed to continue on in their own chapter OR if they were folded into another legion the marines created from their geneseed when they died would still be that of a traitor.
Yeah no but it's not just about the marines themselves. It's more specifically about the Primarch. It's derived from his own geneseed first and foremost.
Interesting. First queastion is, is there any left? I mean, i recall all of the Primarchs legions were created with thier gene seed (and because they weren't acutally thier for that, then i imagine they had tubes of the stuff just lying around) so there was probably a store of it...somewhere. And the most likely place is the imperial palace.....hmmm i would imagine that yes, some geneseed from the arch-primarchs could still be being preserved, or saved, or still down there somewhere. Next queastion, is it any good? It's been like, 10,000 years, and theres a big possibility those generators keepin' the stuff preserved and good have all died, if not in the subsequent battle for the palace already. So if you did happen to get your hands on some, i think it'd be in a very small amount. So here's the bit, who's gonna take it? Some random dude's like "hey there chapter master bolterius, i've got like 12 geneseeds, feel like a few more assault marines?" I could definatly see a crazy inquisitor doing this in a secret laboratory though, with like a very limited number of geneseed, and he's got a thousand test subjects cause he's looking for a perfect subject, cause if it dosent work, then thats one piece of evil primarch gene seed gone to waste! so he's probably very afraid of failing, and other inquisitors! but you don't have to make him a inquisitor either. Anyway, you could have a cool scene where he's at the ruins of the Imperial palace and WHOOPSIES! stumbles on some baddie gene seed. Anyway, it's not like the stuff was corrupted before the heresy, there wasn't any chaos taint in it before that, so it's not inheritanly evil gene seed. Anyway..... I could definatly seeing this work (with alot of stretching and an amazing story/narrative) but like Mantis said, there aren't really personality traits passed on, although i have to disagree about the thousand sons thing, in the DOW tempest book, there's some pretty clear hinting to the ravens being a thousand sons survivor chapter. (and honestly, it's not impossible to bieleve, because there were loyalist survivors from other traitor legions, and like in the death guard novel, they didn't just get rid of them.) to add on that, why can't the heavy pychic's be a trait of the chapter? Space wolves get fangs with thier gene seed, why not pykers for the ravens and thousand sons?
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Actually, the official fluff is very vague when it comes to the possibility of having a loyalist Chapter carrying the geneseed of a Traitor Primarch, so it’s definitely possible to create a plausible background story arguing this idea without contradicting the canon fluff if you’re not above a deft plot twist and a bit of hand-waving.
It’s widely believed that the Adeptus Mechanicus, which manages all Space Marine geneseed and tests it for flaws and mutations to find the best stock for new Chapters when a Founding is decreed by the High Lords of Terra, actually kept the pre-Heresy geneseed of the Traitor Legions for reasons of their own.
It’s also believed, although this is mostly unsubstantiated speculation, that the 13th or Dark Founding was actually an experiment by the Adeptus Mechanicus in using Traitor geneseed for their new Space Marine Chapters. However, something obviously went horribly wrong; even though an unknown number of Chapters was created, no one knows what happened to them and no records of their names or samples of their geneseed have been preserved by the Mechanicus.
This gives us the option of creating a supposedly loyalist Chapter from Traitor geneseed; however, it’s pretty clear from the canon fluff that such a Chapter would either be unaware of their dark legacy (such as the Blood Ravens Chapter might be), perhaps kept in ignorance by the highest-ranking brethren suspecting or knowing the truth (like the initiated inner circle of the Unforgiven who alone knows the truth about the Fallen), or else rife with internal conflict as loyalist Marines struggle to reconcile their true nature with their allegiance to the Emperor while fighting to keep word about their actual heritage from reaching the Inquisition to avoid persecution.
Another question worthy of consideration is whether the pre-Heresy geneseed created by the Emperor is inherently corrupt. This of course depends on whether you believe the Traitor Primarchs themselves were already flawed before their rebellion or whether it was simply the unrecognised humanity of their natures that made them vulnerable to Chaos – if they were previously flawed, then their flaws would’ve been transferred through the geneseed to all Marines under their command, and it would similarly be transferred to any new recipients of the geneseed.
We do know that such traits can be transferred to new Marines through the geneseed – think of the Blood Angels who risk suffering the experience of their Primarch’s dying moments because their geneseed was taken from Sanguinius’ dead body, or the Space Wolves becoming Wulfen unless they can master their feral nature enhanced by the geneseed.
However, we also know that the Blood Angels and Space Wolves are capable of mastering the curse imposed on them by their genetic heritage, and we also know that some of the original members of the Traitor Legions rebelled at Istvaan against Horus and either died or fled in the Eisenstein to warn the Emperor. So it might be possible for some Marines to overcome their flawed genetics even if given Traitor geneseed.
As for the Blood Ravens being Successors of the Thousand Sons, this is a theory still hotly debated in fluff circles. Personally, I believe that it is so and have based my own army fluff on this idea. According to the novel ‘Dawn of War: Tempest’ by C.S. Goto, Ahriman of the Thousand Sons had close connections to Vidya, Founding Father of the Blood Ravens Chapter and writer of the Apocrypha of the Unfounding, the ancient text revered by the Chapter as their holy script, a copy of which as well as the Unfounding itself were once found in Ahriman’s personal library.
Furthermore, the Blood Ravens wear the pre-Heresy colours of the Thousand Sons (not coincidentally, according to Ahriman), and the Chapter possesses a psychic device (the Beacon Psykana) so immensely powerful it is only exceeded by the Astronomican itself, built by their enigmatic Founder for purposes undisclosed and kept secret from the rest of the Imperium. The Chapter also suffers from an increased risk of falling to the temptations of power and knowledge, turning from the Emperor’s light to Tzeentch. Finally, Ahriman himself often hints and at one point almost outright declares that the Blood Ravens are descendants of the Thousand Sons.
So yes, creating a loyalist Chapter with Traitor geneseed would be entirely possible without contradicting the canon fluff.
Last edited by Grephaun; January 9th, 2008 at 20:34.
"Girls are nice and cuddly on the outside, and freaky on the inside." ~ Lost Nemesis.
Greph, I'm under the distinct impression that mister Goto's attitude towards the plausibility of things he writes or contradicting currently existing background goes along the lines of: "It's my book - I can write whatever I want and mess up whatever part of the universe I want. If something some bloke wrote before me doesn't fit with my story, I'll just ignore it - and to hell with over a decade of canon."
Space Marines using Multi-lasers, Eldar retaining elements of their Aspect Warrior armor after leaving that Aspect's Path and so on don't exactly make me accept his work as completely canon, unless someone else in GW incorporates them into official stuff (Index Astartes articles, codices, rulebooks).
This said, it is fully possible to have a Chapter founded with Traitor geneseed, altough they won't neccesarily be aware of that being the case. Thousands of cryo-containers housing tens of thousands geneseed samples, all controlled by fallible humans? Mistakes do happen.
Two samples might have ended up swapped with each other either by accident or design. For example, if someone's error has resulted in a portion of samples in a container being destroyed - and instead of reporting that, he came up with the "bright" idea of re-labeling the contents of a different container. Some radical Inquisitors might actually attempt doing so on purpose.
Or, a container has been mis-labeled. It could have been a clerk's error, a damaged or intelligible label or just a plain dumb computer glitch (or perhaps someone has messed around with the data?). And there you have a sample of Night Lord gene-seed labeled as Raven Guard, sitting in the cryo until someone takes it out to use for founding a new Chapter... (actually I'm using a similar idea for my Raven Knights - except their geneseed is a total mystery, since it doesn't match _any_ know First Founding Legion)
Finally, there are still possible cases of mistaken identity. If a Traitor marine has killed a loyalist, "appropriated" his armor and then got himself killed somehow without being found out (we're assuming a physically unmutated individual, mind you), his geneseed could be harvested by a Loyalist apothecary - and used in creation of new Marines or sent as part of the gene-seed tithe to Mars. "Brother Marcus, why is your gene-seed's different from the rest of our Chapter?", anyone?
To create a marine chapter the geneseed is taken from the adeptus on mars the only place geneseed is kept in the imperium (the other being Hydra Cordratus, now a desolate world destroyd by the iron warriors who took the seed), who routinely recive geneseed from chapters to scan for impurities and only the most pure strains are used to create a chapter, befor this t has to go through the high lords of terra, it is they who decide if a chapter may be created or not.
ALL, and i say ALLLLL!!! Traitor geneseed was destroyed and totaly erradicated after the horus heresy along with all the other records concerning their existance.
so there fore no, it IS NOT POSSIBLE at all, for a loyal marine chapter to bear the geen seed of one of the origional traitor legions, or that of any traitor chapter.
there are numerous occasions where chaos has captured loyalist geneseed from corpses of loyal marines or in the case of Honsou, stole it from hydra cordratus, Honsou himself has Imperial Fist Geneseed,stolen from the field of battle to create him.
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To further clarify on the radical Inquisitor theory, what if a radical Inquisitor were to capture say, a Black Legion marine, extract his geneseed (or what's left), and purify it somehow? For such an Inquisitor it would be relatively easy to have his experiment pass inspection. If he's a man with psychic ability, he could convince the Mechanicus that the geneseed is untainted, or he could make them mislabel it and have it written up as loyalist geneseed. Of course, to ensure the chapter's continued existence the Inquisitor would have to survive the ages. The Inquisitor could also be a pawn of Tzeentch, maybe even possessed, and that would explain why he's survived for so long, acting from the shadows.
If that doesn't work as well, what about combining the remnants of the Black Legion geneseed with loyalist geneseed? This could confuse the Mechanicus into thinking that the geneseed is a slightly mutated strain of the loyalist geneseed. I remember in the Index Astartes there was mention of the Relictors being the combination of two loyalist chapters, I think Dark Angels and Ultramarines.
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