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Can Marines cry

3K views 29 replies 20 participants last post by  omegoku 
#1 ·
Do you think marines cry? Or have any other strong emotion such as love
 
#3 ·
Marines are capable of feeling the full range of human emotion; love, sadness, fear, jealousy, etc. They are psycho-conditioned to suppress them as they get in the way of duty. Essentially, Space Marines in training are brainwashed using hardship, groupthink and hypnotic suggestion. Once they are fully trained they are constantly monitored by the Chapter's Chaplains and in some cases the Librarians as well. They are monitored for any sign of wavering from the faith or mental weakness. Crying would be a sign of such a weakness whether its for a fallen comrade, at a particularly nightmarish situation or for acts that they have performed in combat. An Astartes is expected to mow down innocent civilians if ordered to by their commanders without a moments hesitation or a twinge of remorse.

Millenia of experience has shown the Imperium what happens when a Space Marines psycho-conditioning breaks down and they start to think for themselves. Astartes have a remarkably long lifespan with which to develop grudges, find fault with their masters and contemplate the heavy burdens and sacrifices they make to protect the luxury and power of Imperial nobility. Without constant monitoring and correction, eventually these ideas take hold and a Space Marine will contemplate disavowing himself of his duties to the Emperor.

When a Space Marine throws aside his oath of loyalty, all of his humanity comes rushing back to him at once. Whereas once he would face down a bloodthirster sacrificing himself without fear to protect the Imperium, now his survival is his primary concern. Once he fought for duty, but now they fight only for reward. Anger and tears, I'd imagine, are a part of the process of coming to terms with their realization that all of their life and sacrifice so far had been based on a lie.

Sure, a Marine can cry, but only if their conditioning is breaking down. Either they will be censured and forced to pay penance by their chapter or they will continue on the path to becoming a renegade.
 
#4 · (Edited)
As already mentioned very correctly, Marines are brainwashed - both by hypnotic suggestions as well as a cocktail of psychoactive drugs and even direct uplink to a neural interface. All this aims not only to induce loyalty and chapter identity, but also purge unnecessary emotions and any other weakness.

The ideal Marine is a tool of the Emperor's will. A mindless automaton bent only on the singular task of fulfilling his mission, whilst retaining his human ability of quick adaption to changes in situation. Independent thought is permitted only as much as absolutely necessary.

At least this is how the Imperium would like to have its Marines.

A history of geneseed corruption, technology devolution (which includes the equipment used in the Marine creation process) and a rise of superstition and ritual in what was once pure science has resulted in a rather instable breed of Astartes who suffer from all kinds of unwanted side-effects such as genetic deficiencies, psychosis and, of course, the risk of being subjected to emotions.

Generally, my personal interpretation of the current fluff is as follows.
A new Marine from a relatively untainted Chapter is a steadfast follower of his Chapter's rituals. Whilst his brain might still retain the physical ability to 'feel', emotions are suppressed to a state that the Marine does not even recognize them anymore. The brainwashing had left him an almost blank slate to be programmed with Chapter identity, although he might in some cases retain few memories of his old homeworld in cases where they are either deemed useful or simply cannot be removed/blocked.

After one or two centuries of service, maybe slighttly sooner - if he survives this long - the veteran may now begin to feel basic emotions again, as a spark of humanity, the last remnants of his old self, rekindle and merge with the experiences he had as a Marine, essentially birthing a new personality that is a blend of the Marine's former self and his Chapter identity. This process is slow, and it will take years to form this new personality. It is at this stage that a Marine is most vulnerable to being seduced by the Ruinous Powers - taking with him the younger Marines who, whilst untainted, only want to follow his orders.

This would at least explain certain characters in the fluff.
 
#5 ·
ok the above 2 have answerd the long and factual post i was going to do so il give the shrt one,

they can cry and for a reference see the Hourus Heresy Novels , in the last fo the first Trilogy, Horus Aximand cries as he does something because he doesnt want to but his loyalty to the warmaster forces him to (im not being spesific to avoid spoilers)
 
#8 ·
It would be difficult to relate to Space Marines if they weren't emotionally human, hence why most Marine stories describe them as being emotionally normal while the fluff describes them as being hypnotized, hate-fuelled Death Cultists of Doom.
 
#11 ·
If marines really do feel things like sadness, then perhaps they also feel....enticement?
(handle it maturally!)

Cause if marines do feel that, it'd be realllll interesting to read i think.
 
#12 ·
It never says this anywhere, but I get the distinct idea that Space Marines are eunuchs. Eunuchs tend to grow much larger than intact human males, so this might be one of the factors that make Space Marines so large. This wouldn't preclude them from feeling love or attraction but it would keep them from feeling sexual lust.
I'd imagine that Space Marines would turn traitor much more often if they were intact and expected to live for 450 years without getting laid.
 
#16 ·
It never says this anywhere, but I get the distinct idea that Space Marines are eunuchs. Eunuchs tend to grow much larger than intact human males, so this might be one of the factors that make Space Marines so large. This wouldn't preclude them from feeling love or attraction but it would keep them from feeling sexual lust.
I'd imagine that Space Marines would turn traitor much more often if they were intact and expected to live for 450 years without getting laid.
true.. but Enuchs are prone to growing overweight and laziness. They also are less aggressive than a non castrated male.
I doubt the Imperium would prize these qualities in a marine.
 
#13 ·
well, to be logical, i believe they do feel emotions and therefore they CAN cry. After all, they do feel hatred and anger against the enemies. I think they feel, they just choose not to show unless overwhelmed.

On the part about space marines being eunuchs.... Hmmm... interesting point, but i doubt that they are. Eunuchs grow big yes, but if what you mean by big is fat, yes, they do. And Eunuchs tend to be sissies. Very not like Space Marines on 2 counts.
 
#14 · (Edited)
no to enuchs. one word: testosterone. sure they could use injections...but natural testosterone is so much easier. besides, it'd be something about defiling the holy form of the emperor's mighty warriors or something like that...remember, the imperium sees the basic whole human form as the holiest of holies.

EDIT: besides, explain the eccentric behavior of chapters like the space wolves...dating from before the heresy, where all gene-seed was pure.
 
#15 ·
Well, the sacred-form argument goes for the rest of the Imperium, but both the AdMech and the Astartes deviate from this with the huge amount of modifications they use and strive for.
Implementing 15+ things (including this testosteron-producing organ) into your body and then pumping it full of drugs and steroids pretty much disables the whole sacred-human-form idea.

Apart from that, there's this interesting snippet from the Horus Heresy books, where some Chaos-tainted opera event resulted in every human being turning hedonist and kicking off a huge orgy.
Every single human being - except the Space Marines, who then had to "vent" their repressed emotions in another way. By killing everyone and then becoming a Traitor Legion.
So apparently the Marines were simply unable to partake in that orgy, even though they wanted/needed to.

I don't know if Marines are actually eunuchs (imho this would actually make sense, as it would disable another possible source of "distracting needs" ... and prevent chafing in power armour :b), but I would suspect their "gear" to be at least extremely atrophied due to the enormous amount of modification and drugging their body is subjected to.
 
#17 ·
GW has always been vague about anything remotely sexual in general (how to Tau mate, does anyone know?) and has given us only a little info on how Space Marines are created. Space Marine candidates have to be young otherwise the implantation processes goes haywire. Perhaps this is because they have to castrate the aspirant before they complete puberty? With all the organs they implant and hormone therapy Space Marines need to complete their transformation, the massive hormonal fluctuations of puberty could be terribly problematic and disrupt the process. Testosterone is definitely going to be of some use in developing the muscle mass required by an Astartes, but after that muscle is there, high levels of testosterone would tend to drive the 800 lb killing machine you've just created into unpredictable fits of rage! Marines are hateful and brutal but calculating and relatively calm in battle (people with roid rage don't recite hymns while they freak out, they just yell like an animal). With the exception of Blood Angels and Wold Eaters, Astartes keep their aggression in check while they fight.

As far as becoming a eunuch eliminating aggression, I'm not so sure. Eunuchs have been used as household guards throughout history and were renowned for their loyalty. They may not be irrationally aggressive but they're still human and will fight when called up on to do so. And as far as fat and lazy are concerned, Marneus Calgar looks like he's getting a little tubby lately and his whole legion would rather polish their armor and march around than actually fight...
 
#18 ·
Iron Snakes

The best representation of what a Space Marines should be, for me, is in the book Iron Snakes. Yes, they are alien to us "normal" humans, they think differently, they act differently.

But look at how they act as a unit, how they respect their honour, how they keep the rituals with care and respect to the traditions to their home world
 
#19 ·
Iron Snakes

sorry, didnt finish last post

Of course they are trained and brainwashed. They are thrown into every possible horror thee galaxy has.

They are elite, but they are not unthinking killing machines. They wouldn't last long on the battlefield
 
#20 · (Edited)
I keep repeating this but..

Space marines are not human. They have 2 hearts and 3 lungs. They spit acid, no longer require sleep, and can absorb memories by devouring brain matter. They require routine injections to balance the delicate chemical composition of their bodies and prevent them simply dying from toxic shock. Applying categories like 'Eunuch' or 'non-Eunuch' isn't particularly relelvant.. even if the physical components haven't been removed, they have likely been altered beyond recognition by years of chemical and genetic alteration. Yes, the Imperium worships humanity, that's why space marines make the ultimate saccrifice.. they renounce that humanity and choose to become something inhuman, because humanity needs to be protected.

Crying? Why?

Seriously.. what's left to cry for? You recieve hypnotherapy and response conditioning every day for your entire 400+ year life. You have nothing you care about enough to fear losing save your honour, which you won't lose unless you behave like a coward (for example, by crying instead of calmly reloading your bolter or charging a carnifex with a fixed bayonet.) Your brothers don't die, they just return to the chapter through their geneseed, and even if you don't buy that, it doesn't matter because sooner or later you will almost all die in battle anyway. You accepted that years ago, it's just a given of your condition. There is nothing in your life but war, and the only certainty is death. Why cry, there's nothing to lose, and everything to gain.

That may be the ideal, but it seems to be a pretty damn successful ideal. Sure, marines can probably still cry physically, but you'd need an interesting narrative reason, I think.

And Eunuchs tend to be sissies.
We're very proud of our masculinity aren't we..

Ah.. bless..
 
#21 ·
I read a novel out there, which is about the Imperial Fists, he is recruited while still in his early teens and a gang member.. his hive was called Trazor or something. Anyway, three of them are picked, and they are called the three brothers of Trazor. At the end of the novel only one of them is left, and he cries. He functions as a marine, but still retains his human emotions. He only lets them out when alone in his room however.
 
#23 ·
Marines are war monks. I think that they still have the gear, but its essentially only a waste management device and no longer a recreational device.

And marines do need sleep eventually, they can just operated for extended periods of time without by shutting down and resting parts of the brain sequentially. While this may prolong their combat ability, it does not replace true sleep (sourced from one of the first three HH books by Loken, I think it was the first)
 
#24 ·
I'm not sure about the crying thing - as mantis states they are beyond human.

But they are still animals, and all animals with the proper equipment have a physiological and biological need to breed - and that issue is never touched upon in any fluff source.

It doesn't matter if you have extra organs or can spit acid - anything that can procreate must attempt to procreate - it's not about desire or wanting to, it is a need of every living creature, it's very purpose of being.

All marines begin life as human, and that human still has that biological imperative.

We have fairly detailed information about the implantation process used to create marines and no where does it state that it denies the body that need - so marines must be able to get jiggy.
 
#25 ·
It doesn't matter if you have extra organs or can spit acid - anything that can procreate must attempt to procreate - it's not about desire or wanting to, it is a need of every living creature, it's very purpose of being.
So gay people and monks have no purpose and should just kill themselves?

Sorry.. Hate hate hate biological essentialism. Evolutionary psychology is the worst idea since eugenics (though they're basically the same thing.)
 
#29 ·
*opens can of worms, again*

Well im liking how this going. Do we figure that marines are just castrated then? There are some other novels where space marines notice attractive female figures (indicating that perhaps they're more human then we grant them?) but they never act upon it. Like in the space wolves novel, when Ragnar goes to earth. Another time, is in Fulgrim blah blah blah when they have the orgy thing, and then with loken. Some examples, but nothing that say's it's ever acted upon (which leads me to think that they just can't, maybe human women are too small...maybe they are inoperable, maybe there stuff is just...gone) but this is strange because if THAT is so, wouldn't these feelings be long dead (such as with Enuchs?)
anyway, i really appreciate everyone keeping it mature! super interesting topic
 
#30 ·
In the old Inquisition Trilogy books there was a scene where several Slaanesh worshiping Marines were using long many tentacled devices to defile some females at some stage..

Also when the Marine Captain goes (undercover) to a pleasure cult, the cultist uses her powers to make everyone see what they most desire. The marine shouts out ' Oh Dorn!'

Make of that what you will..

I think marines have the tackle, but not the sex drive or the animal need to procreate.
Between constant radiation and hypnotherapy, they no longer see women as very different to men, the way a human male would.
 
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