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A bit of a ramble this but bear with me.
1) Fluff wise, what happens when you kill a daemon in the material world? Does it 'phase out' like necrons, or is their physical form something tangible that you can touch and examine and it is their 'soul' that goes back to the warp?
2) Why Banish a daemon rather than destroy its physical form, or are the two pretty much the same? Or is banishment like a temporary exile where the daemon cannot re-enter our plain for a set length of time?
How do you banish something - is it by speaking a daemons true name or is there more to it. Angron, for example, has been banished for 100 years but if you could banish him simply by saying Angron then it'd be too easy.
3) The DoW game has a daemon trapped in a daemon stone of some kind. Maledictum I think it was called. is that an Eldar only trick or, aside from daemonhosts, do the Inquisition have anything similar?
Again though, why do that rather than destroy or banish it?
Would a daemon trapped within such a device still have the power to control and corrupt - I think the DoW daemon could but it's been a while...
4) Can a daemon ever truly be totally and utterly destroyed?
Thanks for indulging me.
I can't say I've seen it all but I live for the things that keep me hollow.
1.) It's torn back into the Warp. It's "corpse" might linger a while on the battlefield but will eventually "phase" back into the Immaterium since daemons are already unstable as it is and having your corporeal form destroyed ain't gonna help.
2.) A banishment is as you say, you lock away the daemon for a certain time and it will essentially be in a "prison" during that time. Destroying one has a similar effect but against powerful daemons it will not last very long and the daemon will be able to be summoned forth again soon.
The True Name of the Daemon must be known to be able to banish it and it is usually done by a ritual, but the daemon must be present to be able to banish it, so you can't sit on a cruiser and banish a 'Thirster down on the planet. It's more to it than speaking the True name and I suspect that True names in 40k are similar to True names in other fantasy settings, ie. that they are divine names given when they become daemons so mere mortals have no chance of learning them. The Ordo Malleus have probably collected many True names during their existence, but undoubtedly it has not been done without great sacrifices.
3.) Someone would trap a daemon to control them and have them do your bidding, be it in a certain artefact or in a daemonhost. I think anyone can do it, as long as you have the right knowledge and tools, but it would mean you have to contact daemonic forces directly and invoke certain rituals so it would be incredibly dangerous. A weak-minded person would probably be destroyed and devoured.
I highly doubt that the Eldar do it but certain ambitious Chaos cults and radical Inquisitors would want to harness this power to increase their own.
4.) As far as I know, no. Or at least not powerful daemons. Lesser daemons could possibly be destroyed (perhaps banishing them is enough to destroy them).
I thought the daemon in dawn of war was put there by the Eldar?
Anyway, thanks for all that, very helpful and reb inbound as per, but while you're here....
What about possession? Is permission required by the host for a daemon to take possession of it or can a daemon simply take over? In otherwords, does the daemon have to be let in or can he kick the door down?
And summoning. Say you want to summon a particularly nasty daemon - like An'ggrath who fluff states has only been summoned twice. I guess it is God specific, but how would a human cult go about summoning anggrath and would summoning be the only way to get him into the material plain or could Khorne unleash him as and when he chooses, within the appropriate distance of a warp rift (e.g near the EoT)
Finally, are Daemon Princes bound by the same laws as Greater Daemons - i.e they need summoning, or are they less restricted by the warp/material world crossover?
I can't say I've seen it all but I live for the things that keep me hollow.
Permission helps, as in it makes it easier, but there are many instances of the door being kicked down and the person's mind and soul being taken by force. This is actually probably more common, as there are lots of weak minded people who might accidentaly wander over a certain tainted spot with their mind right open for example. Its even easier for the Daemon if the wanderer is a Psyker, and easier yet if the Psyker does not have the strength of will to control their power subtly (its like lighting a beacon in the warp - which attracts nasty)
Whereas the amount of people who think they can actually control the Daemon if it is inside either their head or someone elses is significantly less (although still worryingly large)
Summoning the big ones. At a guess for something that 'orrible the ritual required would be insanely big, complicated and would require improbable amounts of blood (depending on patron insert corruption for Nurgle, deviancy for Slaneesh or practically anything as long as its unexpected for Tzeentch). And would probably result in the posession of anyone who survived the summoning anyway.
As for can he be unleashed at Khorne's will if its near a warp rift? Probably, but not for that long without lots and lots of blood being continually shed.
Daemon princes are less bound by the laws as far as I know. Some of them ride about in spaceships or sit in the material universe (albeit a particularly wierded up part of the material universe) dont they?
The name refers to facial hair, not playing style.Originally Posted by A news vendor's stand, London, June 1940
The only way to completely destroy a daemon is for its creator to unmake it.
Arch Overfiend & Grand Despot
I currently play:
Doom Eagle Space Marines
Hive Fleet Omega Tyranids
Goff Ork Boyz(dead)
Tau of O'me
Inquisitorial Xeno Hunters
and my attempted foray into fantasy
'Dark Angel Green' Dark Elves in need of fluff
Destroying Daemons instead of banishing means attacking the Daemons energy in the warp and there are a few ways to do this. As said by omegoku their creator can unmake them but this is not the only way. Powerful psykers can attack their warp-power directly through their material form, this will hurt, weaken or kill one. There are specific Daemon hunting weapons described that work to generate psychic energy that cancels out a Daemon's existence. Also any warp-based entitiy of significant power can destroy/eat one in the warp. Daemons will kill each other, probably the most common cause of Daemon-death. Death in the warp is permanent for Daemons as there is nowhere to be banished too.
Same thing. 'Killing' a daemon disrupts its hold on reality and it can't return until it has reconstituted itself in the warp. Depending on how severely it was wounded, it can take seconds or centuries to be able to reenter reality. Leech has it right on actually destroying a daemon.Why Banish a daemon rather than destroy its physical form, or are the two pretty much the same?That's actually one of the most reliable ways to control a daemon, not destroy one--although you could then use the control to do a nasty job on it.How do you banish something - is it by speaking a daemons true name...Inquisitor Eisenhorn obliterated the daemon Prophanitii in the second book of the series.Can a daemon ever truly be totally and utterly destroyed?There are many ways to trap a daemon and they vary in effectiveness. I don't know about this case, specifically. There ARE hermetic daemon prisons but usually one traps a daemon to harness its power--for example, daemon weapons and daemonhosts. Inquisitional prisons are capable of safely imprisoning daemons but they usually destroy the things as soon as possible rather than keep them around.The DoW game has a daemon trapped in a daemon stone of some kind.
"My tanks have names, my men have numbers." -Col. Edmund Grahvess, 23rd Kronecker Prison Guard
Destroying its physical form is actually very hard to do. A lot harder than the game mechanics suggests (a better way of putting it is that the models on the board are the best of the best, even the guardsmen).
Banashing a Daemon strikes at its very psychic presense and sends it back to the warp.
In the older sources a Banished Daemon is humiliated and must spend a certain amount of time in the warp before it can revisit the material plane, In WH40K terms its about 10 years per wound.
In terms of destorying a Daemon certain fluff sources (Realms of Chaos mainly) suggest that a Daemon has many names. Some are binding names as found in grimories and can used to banish it and summon it etc. Some are merely affections used to amuse the daemon and confuse mortals they have no real power.
However all da\emons have a True Name. This name can be used to utterly bind the daemon and even cause it destroy itself completly. Daemons obviously guard their True Name jelously.
As I say these are from older sources...to be honest the Warp is a wierd and terrifying realm and no one really knows what the 'rules' are.
Last edited by Visitor Q; April 3rd, 2009 at 10:45.
"God is dead" Nietzsche- 1886
"Nietzsche is dead" God- 1900
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I remember someting else about Bloodthirsters. In various fluff sources they are given the purpose of slaying in Khorne's name. If they fail in this purpose their bones will join those at the foot of Khorne's throne. In other words they are given the highest rank and power of Khorne's daemons but if they fail him Khorne will destroy them. I think what this means is being beaten in single combat or being banished before they slay any enemies, unlikely but possible.
Also in the 2nd edition Chaos codex here were four Daemon princes, this was before Daemon princes had rules of their own in normal games. They were uber-special characters with no models. In the current Chaos marine codex two of them are mentioned, Doombreed and Foulspawn, who isn't actually a spawn but a weirder than average Daemon prince. The Slaaneshi one, N'kari had a rod made of a Bloodthirster's thigh bone, taken in single combat, indicating it was destroyed not banished. A Daemon destroyed by a champion, rival Greater Daemon may be destroyed by it.
Fulgrim the Primarch of the Emperors children is possessed by a Daemon. The Daemon was trapped in a sword he found and later managed to possess him as his legion turned to Slaanesh. Ways of trapping Daemons is varied. Daemons in daemon weapons often don't choose to be there and it may be a punishment from their god if they are.
Last edited by Leech; April 3rd, 2009 at 22:27.
Yeah, those old DPs rocked. I believe that the Slaanesh one had an Ld of 11 or 12 or something stupid like that!
Regarding Daemon weapons... It's like that quote from the (awesome) book Slaves to Darkness. I think Leech posted in the quotes-thread a few weeks ago.For being confined to a blade, they sure are tricksy. They can expand their influence around them and to weaker minds, even though this power is not as strong as it would usually be."For seventeen long centuries I remained in this blade, confined within these metal walls. During all of my imprisonment you are the first I have seen who is worthy to bear me into battle. Come, take my hilt, and I will serve you in the manner of my kind, drawing blood of your enemies, protecting you in the midst of the fight, bringing you safe home again. Now draw me from the scabbard and test the fineness of my balance. See how easily I swing, how my keen edge cleaves the air. A good choice, am I not? Willingly you picked me up. Your first mistake. Willingly you drew me. Your second mistake. I do not allow my servants to make three mistakes, foolish mortal." ~ Daemon weapon from Slaves to darkness