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i just finished reading another bit of fancon regarding the heresy (dorn conspiracy one) and it pushed me to think about something. had Horus killed the Emperor and succeeded in his heresy...what would have happened in your opinion?
to be more specific:
1) what would the remaining legions do? i dont think the Ultramarines etc would run off to the EoT...so would they continue fighting Horus and his allies to the very bitter end? or would it infact be a quick end? it seemed Horus was worried about the approach of the DA and SW so maybe even with the Emperor dead, the traitor legions would have been destroyed afterwards at the siege of Terra and scattered and fled either way? Or could it be that in such a scenario (E dieing), maybe the Ultramarines would have retreated to the realm of ultmar and set up a last ditch defence there? DA possibly attacking SW once they got to Terra and destroying them with the help of the other traitor legions (now that L'EJ knows who won :p)...what do you think? Personally i still think the Loyalist legions would have continued fighting on...perhaps established a different type of goverment afterwards...however this leads me to the next point..
2) what would happen to the astronomican? with the emperor dead surely it would extinguish too? now if the Emperor died and the Loyalists defeated the Traitor legions, what would they do? no more Astronomican...and also...what was Horus and the other primarchs like Fulgrim thinking? from what i understand they saw themselves as real the saviours of humanity...surely they would have thought would have crossed their mind that "hmmm but once we kill evil daddy, how are we gonna have our beloved humanity travel round?" again no astronomican...surely the whole warp travel ability breaking down wasnt part of Horus's plan were her to succeed? or would he have gone and put Magnus on the Golden Throne? apparently that was the Emperors plan according to some fluff...but then again only the Emperor (and Rogal Dorn??) knew how the Golden Throne worked...
or is simply a case of him thinking that once he won, the whole of humanity would be screwed and all the Traitor space marine legions could have deamons possses their ships and they could travel through the warp like that and everyone else could do the same if they wanted to travel...and not really care about the prosperity of the human worlds or whether theyd get captured by Xenos? would the Traitor legions even think about protecting the human worlds from Xeno incursions? or would it simply be a case of mass world sacrifices to create deamon worlds? but then not all Traitor legions succumbed to chaos worship at that time if im correct? AL, NL, IW..
but yeah, opinions welcomed
edit: since we are on the topic of astronomican/warp travel etc, once the heresy got into full swing and was revealed, why didnt the Navis Nobiles (sp?) family leader (the main guy) - i think i read somewhere that he is able to augment/turn off various navigators sensers? so if the house loyalty was to the emperor (was it?) could he not have "disabled" the navigators helping the traitors? or am i thinking of something else?
Last edited by divine; April 24th, 2009 at 21:57.
From a Chaos/Renegade perspective, it would have been quite wonderful for Horus to win. We of that creed do not call it 'heresy' but rather the great rebellion! And as such I think Horus would have brought about an unprecedented wave of peace and prosperity throughout the galaxy.
He alone was intelligent and wise enough to see the Imperium's destructive ways, and to what unnecessary extremes they went. I compiled some notes on the matter to prove my point:We can clearly see that Horus is willing to recognize his mistakes, more than any vaunted Loyalist ever would. He was such a strong man, if only he had succeeded.Horus Rising – Page 355
“What the Emperor said to me about the stars? Make no mistake, and they will be ours.”
“Make no mistake,” Horus continued. – “That whole war, even the nightmare up on the mountains you had to endure, Garviel… a mistake. I could have handled it differently. Sixty-Three Nineteen could have been brought to compliance without bloodshed.”
“No, sir,” said Loken emphatically. “They were too set in their ways, and their ways were set against us. We could not have made them compliant without war.”
Horus shook his head.
“You are kind, Garviel, but you are mistaken. There were ways. There should have been ways. I should have been able to sway that civilization without a shot being fired. The Emperor would have done so.”This clearly shows that Horus sees the possibility of using more humane methods. He clearly sees the brutality of the Imperium's methods thus far, and you could say that he admires the race of the Interex because of their live & let live philosophy.“Then there was Murder. […] The interex left us warnings to stay away, and we ignored them. An embargoed world, an asylum for the creatures they had bested in war, and we walked straight in.”
“We weren’t to know,” Sanguinus said.
“We should have known,” Horus snapped.
“Therein lies the difference between our philosophy and that of the interex,” Aximand said. “We cannot endure the existence of a malign alien race. They subjugate it, but refrain from annihilating it. Instead they deprive it of space travel and exile it to a prison world.”
“We annihilate,” said Horus. “They find a means around such drastic measures. Which of us is the most humane?”
One that I personally believe he would apply if he were the leader of the Imperium. My opinion is Horus was twenty thousand times the Emperor that corpse is, and he died before his time. He is mourned, he is missed, and he will be avenged.
I mean listen to this man's words! Tell me if they do not exude wisdom and reverence more than that rotten Emperor ever will?His ideas, the things he says are revolutionary, I guess you could say 'heretical' from the usual close-minded standpoint of that era. Truly he was a man ahead of his time.Aximand rose to his feet. “I find myself with Ezekyle on this. Tolerance is weakness. […]”
“I will not make another rash or premature decision,” Horus stated flatly. “I have made too many and my Warmastery is threatened by my mistakes. I will understand the interex, and learn from it, and parlay with it, and only then will I decide if it has strayed too far. They are a fine people. Perhaps we can learn from them for a change.”This goes to show Abaddon’s bloodthirsty, warmongering ways. Whilst Horus is trying to avoid war, and be a consummate politician. The Interex are humans, these are the people he swore to protect! It shows he cares about humanity in a deeper way than any other Primach or Space Marine. Not in a loose way where he knows many will be exterminated, but in a true, fatherly manner.Horus Rising – Page 386
“Or compliance,” Abaddon remarked quietly.
“An attempt to enforce our will here,” said Horus, “would only confirm their worst opinions of us. We cannot force them into compliance.”
“We can,” Abaddon said.
“Then I’m saying we shouldn’t,” Horus replied.
“Since when have we worried about hurting people’s feelings, lord?” Abaddon asked. “Whatever our differences, these are humans. It is their duty and their destiny to join with us and stand with us, for the primary glory of Terra. If they will not…”Horus is fighting against his Mournival's counsel, as well as Chaplain Erebus' word, why? Because he knows it is wrong. This, I believe, is the first part where he knowingly and publicly criticizes the Emperor's views.“We will not have war here,” Horus said. “We cannot afford it. We cannot afford to open up a conflict on this front. Not at this time. Not on the vast scale subduing the interex would demand. If they even need subduing.”
“Ezekyle had a valid point,” said Erebus quietly. “The interex, for good reasons, I’m sure, have built a society that is too greatly at variance to the model of human culture that the Emperor has proclaimed. Unless they show a willingness to adapt, they must by necessity be regarded as enemies of our cause.”
“Perhaps the Emperor’s model is too stringent,” the Warmaster said flatly.That is my favorite speech by Horus. I challenge anyone here to say he couldn't have truly been Mankind's saviour from the clutches of the Tyrant *spits on the ground* False Emperor.Abaddon was not smiling. “The Emperor, beloved of all,” he began, “enfranchised us to do his bidding and make known space safe for human habitation. His edicts are unequivocal. We must suffer not the alien, nor the uncontrolled psyker, safeguard against the darkness of the warp, and unify the dislocated pockets of mankind. That is our charge. Anything else is sacrilege against his wishes.”
“And one of his wishes,” said Horus, “was that I should be Warmaster, his sole regent, and strive to make his dream reality. The crusade was born out of the Age of Strife, Ezekyle. Born out of war. Our ruthless approach of conquest and cleansing was formulated in a time when every alien form we met was hostile, every fragment of humanity that was not with us was profoundly opposed to us. War was the only answer. There was no room for subtlety, but two centuries have passed, and different problems face us. The bulk of war is over. That is why the Emperor returned to Terra and left us to finish the work Ezekyle, the people of the interex are clearly not monsters, nor resolute foes. I believe that if the Emperor were with us today, he would immediately embrace the need for adaptation. He would not want us to wantonly destroy that which there is no good reason to destroy. It is precisely to make such choices that he has placed his trust in me.”
He looked round at them all. “He trust me to make the decisions he would make. He trusts me to make no mistakes. I must be allowed the freedom to interpret policy on his behalf. I will not be forced into violence simply to satisfy some slavish expectation.”
Last edited by Adahn; April 27th, 2009 at 23:59.
The Emperor was the linchpin of the Imperium of Man. With him dead, the Chaos Gods would have had a free hand to conquer reality. That's the official story, anyway.
I have my own theory that Rogal Dorn revolted against the Emperor and had him under house arrest. The Siege of Terra was actually a rescue operation by the loyal Horus, who was desperate to succeed before the traitorous Ultramarines caught up with him. I once expounded on this thesis, but it wasn't well-received.
"My tanks have names, my men have numbers." -Col. Edmund Grahvess, 23rd Kronecker Prison Guard
*Warning: My replies have a few fluff spoilers - especially if you intend to read the Hours Heresy books*
Its an interesting theory Adahn, but I must respectfully disagree
The whole tragedy of Hours is that he has such potential and he was, ultimately, corrupted. Thinking about it, he is rather analogous of the Imperium itself.
Either way, after his injuries on Davin he was ultimately infected with the Chaos taint and then all rationality went out of the window. The HH books clearly show his dramatic change in character as his pride overcomes his reason.
In fact I think the whole question of 'what was the plan' merely highlights how much Hours was being used. He may have had grand visions of a Astartes utopia for the betterment of all, or he may have just have wanted to be the Emperor Mk.II, I'm not really decided yet. Regardless of what he wanted, the moment he and his fellow traitors made pacts with the Chaos powers the result, if they had won, would never have really been in doubt - the gods would have manifested their hold over the traitor legions to create an eternity of strife that makes the current 'Age of Ending' look like a stressful picnic outing.
Any ideas held by any of the legions that they were working for the good of mankind/the astartes would be dashed the moment the Daemons came a pouring out of the warp. They basically would have the choice to join Chaos unreservedly (as many would) or be destroyed by their new masters. Hours included. Without the physic protection offered by the Emperor (and especially as the 'Golden Throne express way to hell' would be open), humanity would be effectively doomed. The loyalists would resist, and be eventually wiped out - as would most other alien races. Chaos, its power increasing all the while, would gradually seep and consume the Galaxy, I imagine creating some sort of Galaxy spanning Eye of Terror.
I believe the original, pre-Davin Hours would probably have had the sense to work this all out and reject it, which is what makes the whole story so tragic. So yes, he was a great great man, but his pride eventually got the better of him.
Oh - I'm a loyalist player, can you tell?
N.B.: @divine - Awesome question by the way, you get a rep for getting my mind working! As for the Astronomican being 'turned off' for Chaos... the Astro guides imperial ships through the warp so they aren't eaten by Daemons or blow horrifically of course etc. As the traitors had the gods of the warp on their side, I believe its just assumed they didn't need such protection.
Fair enough Erebus was a piece of crap for planting the seed of Chaos within Horus' mind. And I'll give you that post-Davin Horus was a completely different man. But I must keep hope that somewhere in there, pre-Davin Horus still existed and that had HE fought back the taint and made his 'heresy' against the Emperor pure and not out of some Chaos-bent crusade, he would have brought reason, prosperity, and a new golden age for the galaxy.
And yes, as far as I know, also, the forces of Chaos travel freely through the warp. Though I suppose they need some form of prayer or spell or somesuch in order to make certain the daemons don't attack them. Since not all Chaos Forces are united, or so I've heard. I may be wrong.
Last edited by Adahn; April 25th, 2009 at 00:05.
Oh I'll agree that had the pre-Davin Hours been needed to take the reigns of the Imperium then I would have been perfectly chuffed!
Actually, that's effectively what did happen - the Emp. left him effectively in charge whilst he sorted out the webway debacle. My only real crit of the big guy is that he should have communicated to Hours what he was really doing. Then this whole sorry mess could have been avoided!
Still, its a more interesting story this way!
Agreed on both counts. A very sorry state of affairs. I bet you if pre-Davin Horus woke up from his non-existent grave today he'd die all over again.
"What have you done to my Imperium!" he'd cry. Then again, so too would our corpse-Emperor.
@Adahn. first of all thank you for putting in such effort to the post but qs, how did Horus plan to bring prosperity if warm travel as humanity knew it back then would have ground down to a halt? i doubt there would have been much prosperity with everyone flying round in chaos possessed ships...
also, does the Emperor really have act like such a protective shiled for humanity keeping all the daemons/warp at bay? didnt know this :o.
so the general opinion is that the loyalist legions would have continued the fight? where at? Terra? or retreated and regrouped?
thank you sovietspace
Anyone pick up how closely related Horus is to the character of Mordred from Arthurian legend?
Created illegitimately (Pact with Chaos, Incest with Sister)
He is the best and brightest (Warmaster, Heir)
Ultimately he is brought low by fate, and things he has witnessed (Davin, Lancelot&Guinevere)
He is under the sway of dark powers (Mother/Aunt, Chaos)
He leads a rebellion against his master/patron
He and his patron kill one another in a final clash
Anyways, I don't think that Horus was every meant to win. I think he was intended to be the catalyst which would bring eternal strife and suffering into the realm of mankind. It's the same thing that happened to the eldar- they have not, did not, and will not wipe eachother out. The Emperor made a deal with the dark gods that helped him to create the Legions. They let him achieve his goal of unification, and then took back their half of the bargain. They took his equal (Horus) and half the legions. Those fallen were just their puppets to start the cycle. The Gods don't grow in power if they have nothing upon which to feed. They need the strife.
Had Horus won, and struck down the Emperor and survived, I think that Chas would have been in deep trouble. It would mean that there was a mortal man who was more powerful than their designs. I think that "Davin Horus" would have turned his will against the Chaos Gods, reconverting their worshippers, killing those who wouldn't repent, and then working to kill/fight/stave-off Chaos. Horus [post Davin] would likely have ruled as a dark overlord, forcing humanity into the darkest of times, pawning souls in return for power. Eventually, his madness would probably lead him against the Gods, at which time he would be killed and the entire human race thrown into dissarray and Chaos.
However, I almost wonder if Horus may have let Chaos alone. I wonder if he may have been tolerant enough to rule the Imperium as the Imperium is, but let Chaos exist alongside it, as an ally. I even admit to seeing elements of good in the Chaos Gods. Khorne would make an excellent god for a people like the Samurai, or the Warrior Elite. I can see them serving almost as patron saints within Horus's Empire, and Horus only acting against them if they got too out of hand- killing a worshiper of Khorne who decides to go on a murderous rampage and take out a small city single-handedly, etc. I think he would have tried to compromise with them, for 'the greater good' of mankind. I think that man would have been unstoppable at that point, destined to rule the stars. And if that had happened, and we WERE the dominant species, I think that Chaos would start anew, and try to divide mankind and cause more strife, to add more fuel and gain more power.
Long and short of it though: Horus would never have won, because he was never fated to- even by his own Gods.