Welcome to Librarium Online!
Join our community of 80,000+ members and take part in the number one resource for Warhammer and Warhammer 40K discussion!
Registering gives you full access to take part in discussions, upload pictures, contact other members and search everything!
Okay, I am one of those people that can't just settle on one project, one chapter, one army list, etc. I'm working on building up a battle company for a custom chapter, and a few other units. Of course, I also want to keep mucking around with my Black Templars. I want to paint up some Dark Angels. I'd like to be able to play a Space Wolf army, as well as paint up a squad or two of them. I love the fluff for Thousand Sons so, of course, there's another army. This doesn't touch on all the non-Marine armies I'm looking at.
So, and this probably doesn't need to be said, this leaves me pulled in about twenty ways at once when it comes to painting, which kindof makes it hard to actually -enjoy- painting.
The first, and probably most likely to receive positive answers, question that I have is how often, and to what extent, do loyalist chapters intermingle? I'm considering using a crusade as a good way to mix multiple chapters together (mixing models, not rules. I'm looking at this as more of a fluff question than a rules question... the rules are perfectly clear.) My Templars make a nice starting point for this since they're almost always off on some crusade or another. Mixing in a second chapter I'm sure is fine, but how about three chapters together? How about six chapters providing strength to a crusade? Would it ever happen? How many can I put into a single crusade/army without it coming off absolutely silly?
The next question is how about using non-standard codexes for lists such as these? I'm sure this will get some folks up in arms (Only the sons of Russ fight like the sons of Russ, not to pick on Space Wolves.) Fluffwise it probably starts to get to be a bit more of a stretch. Mixing DA models with other chapters, and using the DA codex is pretty simple since the DA codex is so close to CM to begin with. Black Templars and Blood Angels are probably fairly easy to get away with as well, as long as your careful who fills what role (Ultramarines wouldn't be leading a crusader squad with 10 neophytes.) Space Wolves probably would be the biggest stretch since all of the units are so distinct, but you could probably fit in a bit. At the very least SM tanks are all about the same regardless of codex, so mixing them wouldn't be too much of a stretch fluffwise. Ruleswise, of course, all of this is perfectly okay as long as all of the wargear is properly modeled.
Now, we step further into the deep water. How about using loyalist models for C:CSM? Cult units probably should be modeled as cult units, but basic CSM units (and to a lesser extent units with a cult icon) seem perfectly reasonable ways to use regular old tactical marines. In particular, if they aren't associated with one of the four cults, I don't (personally) see a problem with leaving the aquilla and other imperial symbols on it since, frankly, it's plenty easy to be deemed 'chaos' without actually realizing it, or thinking that you're on it's side. Fielding Ultramarines, or really large numbers of -any- official chapter probably should be avoided, but DIY chapters and single units or models of known chapters would seem okay (grey knights would probably be the only exception, but there could be others that have as part of their fluff that they never lose any marines.)
Hm, I thought there was going to be a fourth, super crazy level, but three really is as far as it goes. Rules wise, unless things have changed, everything I've mentioned is perfectly legal. As long as you make it clear what codex you're using, power armor + correct wargear = a-ok, and simply leaving the appropriate codex on top of the table probably does plenty to remind your opponent(s) what you are playing. The biggest, most important question I have is how fluffy are the various options? I'm pretty sure 1 is plenty fluffy, it's just a question of how much mixing you can do before you're stretching things. The second two I honestly don't know, and they're both very similar in terms of being okay or not okay fluff wise, since you're essentially using models that are painted for a particular codex in an army using a different codex. The last question is how would you feel about playing against it. That's not as big of a concern for me. If what I do is fluffy and within the rules, I can handle people not liking it. If it's within the rules, but not fluffy, then I start to care a bit more about my other people's opinion on it.
To be honest if it's too unfluffy I probably won't do it as I don't think I'd get as much enjoyment out of my collection that way. That said I prefer to look at loyalist vs. traitor (CM vs. C:CSM) as more of a scale of gray than black and white. (The black and white portion is has an inquisitor declared you a heretic or not, although then you can get into the question of who believes him I suppose.) So, I'll come out and say that in my view, option 3 is probably more fluffy than option 2 (although I suspect many people see it the other way.)
You play your game, I'll play mine.
I think alot of your questions are about rules really, I skimmed, lots of words there. I do remember that Space marines will band together to fight when they are on some sort of crusade. They may also be small elemnts of several chapters that need to ally with each other to fight a common enemy as reinforcements from each chapter are too far away. I would suggest that you use them as normal Marines and keep everything else as fluff.
I could certainly see mixing chapters. The battle for Armageddon alone has involved several chapters of marines-
Angels of Fire
Angels of Redemption
Angels of Vigilance
Sons of Guilleman
The Badab war also included several chapters, as did the campaign against the Tau. I can imagine that yes, they would band together to form a crusade, and as long as you put them all on the same kind of base, weather them the same, and paint some of their equipment (rockets, other munitions) the same colors, I think they'll look fine together. Just make sure to do something original to make them stand out and give them a crusading theme.
Next- mixing codeces is usually frowned upon. Using the army as anything but the Vanilla Codex will probably be looked down upon, as it will seem that you're favoring a particular codex not for the fluff, or for the models, but for the stats. I'd just stick to vanilla, and then try to fit squads where they belong. For example:
Vanguard on foot = BT. Sword Brethren models
Vanguard = Blood Angels Honor Guard
Sternguard = Crimson Fists
Bike Squad = White Scars
Dev. Squad = Dark Angels
Predators = Iron Hands heraldry
Remember though, some chapters won't fight well together. BT hate psychers, so if you include BT, you should avoid sticking a Librarian on the field. Dark Angels hate the Space Wolves and vice verse.
As for marines who've fallen to chaos- you could just use the Marauders or whatever they're called. Renegade marines who paint a bloody slash across their heraldry and go rogue. Iconography for that would be varied. I doubt that a crusade would fall to chaos, and other than a crusade, I don't see why they would congregate. I'd say no to using bone-stock loyalist schemes on a chaos army, and if you make a chaos army- i'd advise skipping the multichapter idea altogether.
As for option 3 being fluffier than option 2. It is, if you write your own fluff. None of the 'declared' GW chapters are going to fall anytime soon. It would just be game breaking if the Dark Angel's suddenly changed their minds about Lion El's decision and decided to start backstabbing some Ultramarines or something. However, my own chapter falls into your gray space, as do the Soul Drinkers- a Black Library chapter.
Although every Imperial organization will ally with an other organization, they generally only do so on a 'big picture' basis, and don't actually mix the command structure of the 2 groups. The Inquisition is an exeption to this rule, they often do give direct orders to Imperial Guardsmen and Marines and those orders are generally obeyed. However, a Marine would never respect an order from a member of a different chapter.
Marine Companies of different chapters would fight together much in the same way an Imperial Guard Regiment and a Space Marine Company would fight together. Neither has any real control over the other one and its basically up to the Captain and Regimental Commander to make a consensus between themselves of what their combined strategy is.
So Fluff wise, to justify having 2 different chapters in a regular 40k FOC you would need to have 2 Captains, each of whom the commander of 1 company of their chapter.
Last edited by kroxigor01; May 3rd, 2009 at 03:54.
A few clarifications:
I have no intention on mixing rules. One army. One codex. The rules are fine, the only question is the fluff.
I do not intend on having an entire GW chapter fall to chaos. That would just be silly.
And a question:
I skimmed the Soul Drinkers book and it looked like it was largely nothing but fighting, which isn't a very interesting read for me. How is it?
You play your game, I'll play mine.
Dude- it's BL. It's like pulp fiction, dime novels, penny dreadfuls, whatever you want to call it. If I want to read a book, I read Cervantes. If I want to have a fun time turning pages, I buy Black Library.
However, I will admit that Soul Drinkers makes it onto the list of "almost acceptable as literature" books. It follows a chapter of marines who have an interesting reason for fighting, and it always throws a good hook. Sometimes you're left sitting back asking "how much more can these poor guys take?!". The author has no character love, he'll kill them off without issues, but not before he gives you time to really like them. I enjoyed the book, and for BL it's really top notch in my opinion. Yeah, it's mostly fighting, but there is a genuine story woven in between the neck-snapping. He just knows what most of us like- and that's action. I think it would make a great graphic novel, or silly "comicbook movie" like 300 or Vendetta.