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Why there cant be peace

6K views 79 replies 24 participants last post by  carrotman50 
#1 ·
There is a topic about what if there is peace, but this one is, like the topic said, about why it is impossible for peace to be achieved.

The reason why peace cant be achieved is because each of the factions think that all of the others are wrong. The Good factions (Imperium, Eldar, Tau) each think each of the others are wrong. The one most likely to ally with the others are the Tau, but no one would ally with them but mabey the Eldar. The Evil factions (Chaos, Dark Eldar, Orks, Necrons, Tyranids) are just too evil to ally with each other. The Imperium is numerous to destroy the Tyranids with help from the Eldar. The Tau can defeat orks. The Eldar can take care of Necrons and Dark Eldar. And together, they could destroy the Chaos. It could happen, but it wont.
 
#2 ·
Theres a speedbump in your peace plan. For the Imperium to gather the armies to defeat their enemies, specially the evil ones you so call them is for the evil ones to stop attacking us so we can focus on one race at a time. Im pretty sure Chaos is not willing to stop attacking us so we can go kill another race before we kill them. Orks and Necrons cant be reasoned with so their out of the question. Dark Eldar arent even worth talking because their answer is going to be the same as Chaos. The nids stop attacking us will never happen. Even so we cant possibly defeat the nids because we dont know where they are to begin with. And Im pretty sure were not going outside our Imperium to go and find them. Its not safe out there. Plus, I consider the Tau to be evil as well do to the way they treat their human citizens. :rotfl:
 
#3 ·
I think your looking at WH40k in black and white.

Who is good and evil? Really, the Imperium KILLS psykers simply because they are psykers to keep there Emperor alive. They turn people into servitors, and they kill other people on the grounds that they don't act the same and/or are not humans.

The Dark Eldar do as they do to SERVIVE in the most fundimental of ways (keep the angly Slaanesh monster happy...ish :messed:) By means of torture/pleasure/enslaveing random races.


The Orks are evil because thats there natural instinks. They really don't know any better.

Chaos are evil in that they want the Imperium destroyed for a variety of reasons.

The Eldar are not trying to save the galexy like some people seem to think, they are trying to do what is best for them in the long run, atleast 99% of the time. Often done by killing people.

The Tau are to deturmed in there single minded dogmatic beleif of the "greater good" which is basicaly galactic domination.






Basicaly, ALL of the races/factions in the 40k universe are "evil" and somehow "good" in there own ways.
 
#7 · (Edited)
Leaving aside the Eldar and Tau for a moment the Imperium is made up of despotic oligarchs who would happily sentence a billion souls to death if it would keep them in power. The Imperium has committed atrocities that make the most crazed dicator on earth seem like a fount of liberalisim.

In short the Imperium is not objectivily Good.

Equally Tyranids are effctivly animals. they have no sense of morality and hence can not be called Evi, anymore than a super nova with the capacity to wipe out a world can be called evil.


The Tau aim for peace. A galaxy united, every species free to live their lives as they wish, so long as they do not infringe on the freedom of others.

"The more I learn about these aliens, the more I come to understand what drives them the more I hate them. I hate them for what they are and what they may one day become. I hate them not because they hate us but because they are incapable of good honest human hate".


Inquisitor Agmar
 
#11 ·
The Tau are just as skrewed up as the imperium. The Ethereals are subjegating the other castes into doing their version of the "greater good". Just look at that one Tau firewarrior commander (dont have the books here at work, someone will have to post his name, Brightwind? or was Brightwind the one from the lastchancers?) that lost his Ethereal in battle. He then broke off from the Tau and had his OWN version of the greater good. And what is the greater good? It's not galactic peace, its service to whatever the Tau overlords want it to be, if you dont like it, we'll kill you.

Sounds kinda like they're doing a crusade like the Emperor was doing way back when....

The imperium is as bad, if not worse than Chaos. At least chaos doesn't try to hide the fact that they raze whole planets for no reason other than they don't like who's on there...

Eldar are always looking out for number 1, and hell, if it wasn't for them, Slaanesh wouldn't exist.



If any of the races in the game were "good" instead of "evil"
It would be the Tyranids. They don't gain pleasure from killing, they do it to grow and survive. They have no emotions of good and evil. They're just doing what they're hardwired to do, eat...
 
#12 ·
This whole business of oppressing other species or engaging in evil actions is a lie spread about by two groups of people.

1. People who take Dawn of War: Dark Crusade's Tau Ending as canon.
2. Neckbeards on /tg/ who hate Tau, and hate the idea of a good faction, so they make the Tau evil (but continue to hate on them).

There is no canon example of Tau rule being in any way bad.
 
#17 ·
This whole business of oppressing other species or engaging in evil actions is a lie spread about by two groups of people.

1. People who take Dawn of War: Dark Crusade's Tau Ending as canon.
2. Neckbeards on /tg/ who hate Tau, and hate the idea of a good faction, so they make the Tau evil (but continue to hate on them).

There is no canon example of Tau rule being in any way bad.
1 - Never beat DC at the Tau...
2 - Don't goto /tg/ anymore, it got about as retarded as /b/....

Uhmmm... the whole Embrace our ideal for the greater good, or we'll wipe you out, isn't a cannon example? Their encroaching into Imperial space and slaughtering imperial citizens loyal to the emperor is good? They allow the Kroot mercenaries to eat their kills (2nd Last Chancers book has a memorable moment), thats good?

Sure, they openly embrace other species, as long as they conform to the ideals of the Ethereals... that sounds kinda like oppression to me....
 
#15 ·
Tau being oppressive jerks is also well laid out in the Xenology book. There's a short interview that talks about O'Shavah's little rebellion and it's linked with the Doctor's later studies that the Etherials release powerful pheremones from their head-crystals. This could result in them having biological sway over all the "lesser" classes. So the 'Greater Good' may just be a prettier phrase than 'Enslaving Your Own Race'.
The doctor that did all the studies was considered a radical and the Inquisition quickly went to shut him down after his Kroot buddy ate some things. So it's hard to write it off as Imperial propaganda.

Everyone's closets are packed with skeletons in 40k. Embracing the dirt is what makes it interesting.
 
#18 ·
Tau being oppressive jerks is also well laid out in the Xenology book.
Tau having human feet is also well laid out in the Xenology book.

Xenology is bollocks.

The Imperium wants to protect humanity
Buy or borrow a copy of the 5th edition rulebook. Read the description of a Civilized World. Shit brix as you realize the Imperium makes Stalin's russia look like a utopia.

Uhmmm... the whole Embrace our ideal for the greater good, or we'll wipe you out, isn't a cannon example?
Paaaage Nuuuumber.

Their encroaching into Imperial space and slaughtering imperial citizens loyal to the emperor is good?
Actually Tau let you continue worship of the Emperor as long as you follow the Greater Good. (Which is exactly what it says: the greater good, the benefit of the empire as a whole. "Follow the Greater Good" means "be altruistic and caring for others.")

So yeah.

They allow the Kroot mercenaries to eat their kills (2nd Last Chancers book has a memorable moment), thats good?
It's not bad - a body is just a body. But the Tau do find it rather distasteful. They don't forbid it because it's such an integral part of Kroot evolution and because Kroot aren't actually part of the Empire - they don't actually have the power to forbid it, as much as they'd like to.

I can tell you're not a Tau fan, or indeed, even particularly knowledgeable about Tau, or you'd have known that already. And I know this because even I, who am only vaguely interested in Tau, still know that.

Sure, they openly embrace other species, as long as they conform to the ideals of the Ethereals... that sounds kinda like oppression to me....
The ideals of the Ethereals are of working towards the benefit of all people, to act without selfishness, to work for a better standard of life for everyone, to achieve peace. You can still follow your own religion as long as it's not a violent or otherwise harmful one. You get to keep your planet's economy and culture, but with the bad parts (like capitalism and other destructive practices) removed.

I fail to see the problem with that. If the entire world was forced to live under a set of benevolent principles and the quality of life steadily improved, with no restrictions on your freedom aside from that you don't do bad things to innocent people, would you call that oppression?



tl;dr Tau are good guys, don't believe everything you hear on /tg//warseer/blacklibraryforums/wherever.
 
#16 ·
the imperium is not necissarily evil. it wants to protect what it thinks is right. that is what separates the Good from the Evil. The Imperium wants to protect humanity, the Eldar want to protect themselves, and the Tau want to preserve whatever the "Greater Good" is (Their a bunch of space buddhists, so i think its nirvahna). The Chaos, Orks, Necrons, and Tyranids all want to destroy.
 
#19 ·
Well there hasnt been a clear definition on what the 'Greater Good' is. And I wouldnt call them space buddhists much because buddhists actually know what nirvanna is and will be eager to tell anyone who asks. Some people will even think that buddhists are evil as well. Mostly because of their strong beliefs in karma may be somewhat against westerns moral principles and thoughts. Its a differnence in thought and so on. but thats getting into the discusion of religion and lets try to stay away from that.

Now everyone has their evil. Some more than others. Imperium trys to hide it but its pretty hard to hide some of the things they do. It is also hard to define what is evil and good in the 40K realm because we have not experienced anything that the human race has experienced in the 40K realm. We have not experienced the Age of Strife, The Unification Wars, The Great Crusade, The Horus Heresy, or any other great event that would affect humanity. So what we may think as evil maybe considered good to them. Its hard to tell. The Tau are just the same. Well, to a point. They do not have as long of history as the human race but they do have their evils. Some that are greater then humans. I think Nhyx explained it pretty well so I wont go into detail just to save space and my time. The Eldar have their evils as well. At least most of them do. They are arrogant and believe that every other race is below them. :rotfl:
 
#20 ·
Codex: Tau Empire 4e
Page 2 (page 4 on the PDF version)

The Tau Empire is underpinned by the concept that it is only right and noble to set their own desires aside to work together for the greater good of the empire.

This is a good thing.

About Imperium - they don't try to conceal their evil, black library and humanwank lovers try to conceal it. GW is quite happy to show them as evil in the rulebooks, but some people believe that "They're good because they're human!"

About Eldar - Eldar are actually less arrogant than some species, particularly Humans and Orks.
 
#24 ·
Are you one of those people who likes to wander into a thread, ignore the actual posts, and spew some random insults? Also, looking mighty hypocritical there, kid.
How original of you to use the same insult I did to you, right back on me, it's sheer brilliance. Also, the only people who use "Kid" on the internet, is themselves children, it's how they attack the grown-up's who can use free thinking and are liberal with the fluff.

Also I was told to say you are the weakest link, and goodbye sir.

-K
 
#25 ·
1. There is a theory that Tau brainwashed the Vespid. Yet its more a heavily implied possibility rather then a flat out truth. It was made to make them more grim dark in the grim dark darkness of the 40k millennium.

2. Remember that Tau are based heavily on Eastern Culture (unlike many of the other factions which are based on Western, or Eastern European Culture and Mythology/Fantasy). Tau are whats called a High Context culture. These basically means that the most important thing to the Tau is the state, The Tau Empire, and the Ethereals who are the symbols of that state. The individual is secondary (Its also a fluff reason to make Tau ICs rare). The Tau only allow their most loyal (Shadowsun) to be recognized above the rest for something other then a even test (the Trial by Fire). The Tau's distrust of individuals with great power seems to have been born out by O'Shovah, who is now a selfish a**(in the eyes of the Tau).

Just thought I would throw in my two cents.
 
#26 ·
I find it rather funny that people are arguing that people who will fairly openly wage war (the Tau) are not in any way shape or form EVIL. Yes, they give the opportunity to let people be "allies" (not sure exactly to the extent of that, but they give a small opportunity) but once the opposition says no, what happens? WAR.


I think if you want to play a game or read book that has a single entity that is NOT evil, some comic books are where you should go (please don't take that as me talking down about comics, i am not) because really, most of the time when people posses the power of an army, they don't tend to be very "good".


The Tau are as likely to be evil as just about any other race in the Warhammer universe. I really do think that if they were "peaceful" and "loving" and such like people are saying, GW wouldn't have put them in the game, why? because SOME race in the game (human, ork, 'nids... whatever) would have killed them off once they were found.


>>>IF!<<< they ONLY EVER used weapons to PROTECT THERE OWN LIVES and NEVER went to another plannet to convert others to there teaching *by force* >THEN< they may be concevably "Good".


I also think that people arguing over what is good and bad is kinda stupid, because we ALL come from dif. places, and have lived dif. lives thus far, so people are not going to see everything like good and bad 100% equally. So truly arguing about it is getting no were.

Khan
 
#27 ·
'What, drawn, and talk of peace? I hate the word
As I hate hell, all Montagues, and thee.'

tldr for much too much of it so skimmed, but really, those last two posts are fairly well put together.

really, if there was peace there'd be no reason to play the game; so GW keeps all races good/evil/opinion in a constant state of riled up for war so that any race vs race would seem viable and/or possible.
Plothammer and vaguery are the tools of GW in this, so whether what we think is what the race is, it's most likely there's as much evidence against as there is for.
One way or another, most every army is out for what's theirs while it's there for the grabbing. ultimately, they're all in it for their own personal goals.

also, an army's own codex isn't a good frame of reference since it'll always portray it's army in a good light, while they'll be portrayed as bad in other codices (ref High Elves vs Dwarfs); and most books are noncanical or maintain the whole 'not official' label, so really, GW tries it's best to leave everything up to opinion anyways, in which no one is infallible.
 
#30 ·
Y'know what the Tau remind me of? 1984 - the book by George Orwell (minus BB )

Both leading parites want the "Greater Good", they both "brainwash" their populace (Every tau has the same opinion -- hmm, suspicious), using propaganda and well, education I suppose

In 1984 Oceania (i think) is constantly changing allegance with Eurasia and East Asia (correct me if i'm wrong about the names), whichever is agreeing with them at that time. Just like the tau will ally with any one who agrees with them, but when they dont...well....war.

And is 1984 a happy happy, lovey dovey book? No.
 
#33 ·
y'know what the tau remind me of? 1984 - the book by george orwell (minus bb )

both leading parites want the "greater good", they both "brainwash" their populace (every tau has the same opinion -- hmm, suspicious), using propaganda and well, education i suppose

in 1984 oceania (i think) is constantly changing allegance with eurasia and east asia (correct me if i'm wrong about the names), whichever is agreeing with them at that time. Just like the tau will ally with any one who agrees with them, but when they dont...well....war.

And is 1984 a happy happy, lovey dovey book? No.

exactly!
 
#31 ·
meh, the tau are like humans, exept there a few thousand years behind.

and whats wrong with the DC tau ending? The tau accept the humans into there armies don't they? oh yea it because they make them all infertile.

We are humans they are humans, most people should have some sort of conection to these poor troopers. sure there are some evil dictators in the imperium but not everyone is.
 
#32 · (Edited)
There can be No Peace, because a peaceful wargame would be boring :)

Fluff - wise, there can't be peace because every1 is selfish!

Also, Orks arn't Arrogant! They have no concept of arrogance. Also, the ORkses COULD whips out the Universe if they united. Only they won't til a brainboy comes along, n they're all dead.

The Entire Imperium is evil... The average citizen spends their life either in the Guard or being a slave, working in the name of the emperor for 20 hours a day. Read the description of Cities in CoD.

Also, Imperial commanders fight their wars first world war style "More men = More chance of victory = Chaaarrrrge!" except for a few.
 
#34 ·
I am not saying the Tau are not evil. They just do not brain wash people (except the Vespid...maybe) the way you all are implying. Its their culture to work toward the glory of the Tau Empire. If the brainwashing was so total as you all seem to think it is than the O'shovah incident never would have happened.

Still the Tau are an amazing expansionist nation. They want to control a large part (if not all) of the Galaxy eventually. About as evil as America during our "Manifest Destiny" period in history.

Also where does it say that Tau make humans that join the Gue'vesa infertile?
 
#37 ·
They don't tell them there infertile... there just trying to kill off the humans, and getting some free labour out of it.

The 'greater good' could only happen in an idealistic world. And that is definitely not the 40k world.

There will always be something there to stop it, dictators or armies of orks invading, there is always something stopping it.

There is no time for peace.
No respite.
No forgiveness.
There is only WAR​
 
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