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Right, just wanted to clear something up for myself.
I keep hearing, in many different threads, that the Chaos Gods gain their power through their servants worshipping and believing in them. However, according to all the GW fluff I've seen, the Gods gain their power not through the belief of their followers, but through the emotions and actions that correlate with their theme. For example, Khorne doesn't get stronger by people worshipping him, or even killing for him. Instead, he just gains power by people killing each other.
To me, the idea of a God gaining power through belief is not the metaphysical power they gain from emotional power, but instead it is power in our universe. So sacrificing to a God won't increase said God's warp power, but instead will increase his influence on our plain of existence (which will in turn lead to an increase of the specific empowering emotion).
Now, do I have this right, or did I miss something?
well usually when they worship the gods, their emotions compliment their gods further strengthening them. For example, khorne bezerkers kill for khorne, so that is their form of worship and it further strengthens khorne and khorne gifts his followers who kill the most. For example again, a slaneesh worshipper is going to indulge themselves with pleasure, further strengthening slaneesh.
Pre-Heresy Death Guard
"For Mortarion, For Barbarus, For the Emperor!"
Well as far as im concerned with undivided, worshipers of undivided worship all of them as to not incur the wrath of any of them. They incorporate elements of all the gods in their warband, either they continue to have an even distribution of nurglings, bezerkers, etc or a god favors them and they just follow that specific one. Undivided make the decision not to gain all the special powers of one god in exchange for acess to all of the gods arsenals, worshiping them then just falls to having just the plain 8-pointed star and using variety of the gods daemons and weapons. This is just my opinion of course
Pre-Heresy Death Guard
"For Mortarion, For Barbarus, For the Emperor!"
Theological debate time!!!
The way I see it, the Chaos gods are both feeders-on and influencing powers-of the emotions that they personify. Each of the gods is not just an entity based around one idea; Khorne is of course hate, rage, violence and bloodshed but he is also martial prowess, honour, valour and skill at arms. Tzeentch is not just magic but also knowledge, wisdom, learning, evolution, trickery and mischife. While most would think of Slaneesh as simply sexual desire, he is above all the personification of experience. He is the sum total of everyting that the brain can take in and experience to the upmost limit.
So with these very vast and encompassing ideas that are the essence of these gods so too is the way in which the are worshipped and in turn influence. Any act of agression or war could be construde as a form of worship to Khorne while simply admiring a painting is in some small way giving thanks to Slaneesh. Praying to be saved from death would have a been the driving force of Nurgle for eons and every new invention or discovery is paying homage to Tzeentch.
The power the gods have in the warp varies little as there is little change in the flow of emotions from the mortal realms. Within the warp the strength of the Primary Four neither waxes or wains greatly and thus no one god is ever truly in control of the others.
Where the gods' strengths are truly shown is in the psyichal universe. A god's power in real-space is directly related to the amont of mortal followers and worshipers it has. Through these followers they are able to exert their influence into the mortal realms and thus gain more power for themselves.
The Powers Undivided is not simply worshipping Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch and Slaneesh in eaqual measure making sure not to favour one too much. It is also worship of the untold lesser gods and deities that reside within the Empyream. Its is also worship of the four at the times when their favour is required; pray to Khorne before the battle, to Tzeentch when searching for knowledge, to Nurgle when faced with death and corruption and to Slaneesh for the sheer joy of living.
... I should write essays. Did any of that make sense or indeed help to answer your question?
It does a little, thanks. Still confused about where sacrifices fit into Undivided worship, but then, the whole Undivided thing confuses me a lot.
For example, I know that those who worship Undivided for personal gain only turn into Furies if they die, but what about those who generally love and are devoted to all of Chaos? Again, I use the Word Bearers as an example, they seem to rarely devote themselves to one god, but instead adore them all. So what happens if a battle-brother dies before becoming a daemon? With the others, they become part of their chosen god, but nothing is said about those who love Chaos.
As for the ebb and flow of warp power, doesn't Nurgle's power do that? Grow as disease spreads, and then once everyone dies from it his power wanes? And it's been awhile since I read the Demons codex, but I think something in there says Tzeentch once ruled the others, had something about a broken staff in it...
But anyways, thanks for that bit of theological info. Rep for you guys.
Yeah.. The chaos gods were all formed by the primal drives of living beings resonating in the warp, so yeah, they grow stronger when these powerful emotions stir the warp they live in. But it's not just a general thing..
They also grow more powerful through the belief and actions of their champions, through the saccrifice of souls in their name, etc. Each time a champion dies or an individual is saccrificed, their warp presence is directly subsumed into that of their God, slightly increasing that God's scale and power.
The word bearers in particular don't worship Chaos Undivided as an abstract concept, they worship each of the Gods equally as a Pantheon. Hence, they might devote prayers and saccrifices to Khorne one day and Nurgle the next, and you might get individuals who favour one god over another, but generally they strike a balance between worshipping all of them.
Also, actions performed in the name of the Gods (like rituals or battles) resonate with them and make their influence in the physical world more tangiable. That's why it's worth praying and stuff.
When champions of Chaos undivided die.. who knows..
Last edited by The_Giant_Mantis; July 21st, 2009 at 11:59.
As for what you mentioned about Tzeentch at one point ruling the other Gods I think I've read that too somewhere (maybe the daemons codex). That is not to say that he has little power now. He may still covertly control the other Gods through their actions, using their battles and in-fighting to suit his own ends.
Th Undivided champions tread the most dangerour path of all as they owe no strong alliance to one patron and therfore will not recive the benefit of 'belonging' to a caertain power once they die. They are most likely scattered to the winds of the warp or are picked up by one of the lesser powers hoping to gain in stature. If an undivided champion where to die in a particulary grusome way, taking many many lives with him/her, they may draw the attention of Khorne long enough for him to claim their soul (and skull) for himself. The same situation could act out for the other Gods too. A champion who dies in the throes of excess killing and experience will get noticed by Slaneesh and likewise for the other powers.
A Chaos Champion who does not pledge himself to one of the powers is doomed to 'live' as a mindless fury forever. A fate much worse than oblivion
Arch Overfiend & Grand Despot
I currently play:
Doom Eagle Space Marines
Hive Fleet Omega Tyranids
Goff Ork Boyz(dead)
Tau of O'me
Inquisitorial Xeno Hunters
and my attempted foray into fantasy
'Dark Angel Green' Dark Elves in need of fluff
Sacrifices serve a few purposes. First off, emotions tend to get extreme around death, particularly if it's the emotions that cause the death. (For example, Slaaneshi victims with big grins locked on their faces.) Second, the sacrifice can serve a utilitarian purpose such as allowing a daemon to manifest in reality. Third, souls appear to be miniature emotion generators. Feed Khorne some anger and he has a meal. Feed him some souls to keep eternally angry and he has a farm. Kind of a spiritual arms race, that way.There seem to be a lot of those. So my Commissar was right about that suicide mission being the easy way out?A fate much worse than oblivion
"My tanks have names, my men have numbers." -Col. Edmund Grahvess, 23rd Kronecker Prison Guard