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Okay, to start off I'm not 100% positive this is the right forum. I am asking a question about which space marine chapter I should choose. Now before you kick me into one of the rules forums or something, know that my motives are entirely fluff base: I already have the army purchased and assembled (though I am of course not opposed to buying a few key models/units here and there to fit with the theme I choose more closely). If this is still the wrong forum, I apologize and and request that this thread be moved to the proper area.
Okay, down to the matter at hand - my dilemma. As mentioned, I have a Space marine army (2,000 pts+) that needs a chapter. For most people, who are normal and rational and sane, this would not be that big of a problem: simply pick the one with the colours you like, or the rules, or even the story. Not so in my case, as I have a very irrational set of criteria: the chapter has to be first founding and have a Primarch that isn't necessarily dead. I don't know why but I just really like the idea of having a basically living primarch around. With that in mind, the list of possibles would look something like this:
Now, I absolutely despise the white scars, and find the coal black skin and red eye thing the salamanders have going on to be revolting, so that would leave:
Two who have Primarchs that simply wondered off, and two who have Primarchs that are basically in stasis. Now originally, I had picked the Raven Guard (back before there was much back story for them out there) and this is what my army is painted up as right now (which is good, since because the are black I can just paint right over them for pretty much any chapter colour scheme). However, it later became known that they are guerrilla warfare specialists (which I really don't like) which is what has set me out on trying to find a new chapter.
Now, this of course leads me to numerous options: I can try and narrow down which of the three remaining chapters on the list I want to pick, I can get over my need of the having to be first founding (old legions) and pick a second founding descended from a legion with a (probably) living Primarch, or I can be shaken of my obsession with having a (probably) living Primarch.
There are some chapters out there I do like, the Black Templars because they are crusaders and they sneakily have far more then a thousand marines being one example and I like the White Consuls colour scheme. I had considered making my own chapter up (maybe doing a "scrubbed second-or-eleventh" legions).
If the Death Guard were loyal, I'd be them in a second. I loved their pre heresy MO and tactic type. Reading their background (and then the horus heresy novels) really made me wish they had been loyal marines.
The Imperial fists were kind of like the loyal mirror of the Death Guard, except these days they follow the codex just as strictly as the Ultramarines so they kind of lost all their uniqueness, otherwise I like the whole stubborn fortress specialty/siege guys thing.
In the end, I guess if I liked a chapter enough I could forget the primarch thing, or the first founding thing. As you might have been able to tell from this post, I have trouble making up my mind a lot of the time, and if I make a choice I'm not 100% behind I'll regret it forever and it'll always nag at me.
Like my Imperial guard, I knew exactly what I wanted, and I am happy playing them and was able to make a choice fairly quickly.
That's what I'm looking for here, I choice I can make without regret, that's exactly what I want. So far I haven't been able to find that.
So if anyone could help me out, maybe help me make sense of this and steer me towards a choice I can get behind, that would be great. If not, I understand, this damn thing is really hard XP
Again, I apologize if this is in the wrong forum, I was just unsure which one this would fit best in.
Let's start from the beginning, forget all of the chapters GW has made and think:
1) What do you want your chapters spacialty to be?
Some examples are;
-Drop Podding -Scouting -Rapid Strikes -Siege -Close Combat -Ranged Warfare -Crusaders
2) What models do you have/like?
If you love assault marines don't choose space wolves, if you have tons of sternguard Crimson Fists might be for you.
3) What colours do you like/think look good on marines?
You're gonna end up painting these guys sometime, and if you're not willing to paint yellow over the black armour you currently have you may not want to play Imperial Fists.
4) What campaigns interest you the most/what do your friends play?
Every chapter has some key campaigns, and naturally they need to have troops near those campaigns to take part. Also if half of your friends play Tau and the other half play Tyranids you'll want a cchapter located near the eastern fringe.
5) Do you like a lack of fluff?
Some players like to have established fluff for their armies, stuff like when Dante broke the back of the ork horde during the second war for Armageddon, or like the Imperial Fists assault on the Iron Cage. Others like the freedom of other chapters where they can make up theirown characters, their own campaigns, filling word documents with victories and defeats. There is a downside to this, these chapters (many DIY others small tidbits released by GW) will never be the stars of the show in huge GW fluff peices. People won't like it if the chapter master of the Wolf Brothers kills Abaddon.
I hope this helps you make your decision, post up your answers to these questions and we'll see if we can help you more.
The Emperor Protects
IG Best Gen 1st overall of 10 DE 4th overall of 6
Eldar 3rd Overall/Best General of 26--2nd Overall/Best General of 7--1st Overall/Best General of 11
Why not just paint them as Death Guard and either claim one of the following (in no particular order):
1) They are pre heresy themed and play them as loyal marines (ignoring the whole they should be wearing pre heresy armour)
2) When the Death Guard became hertics your guys were kicking it on a back water planet that was cut off by a warp storm and didnt fall like the rest of the chapter. (Cut off by warp storms is a GW staple for making things more plausable).
4) Invent a Second founding Death Guard chapter that has been loyal despite the shadow cast over them because their Gene Seed is tainted. The wouldnt be the first chapter to be watched closely because flaws in their Gene Seed.
3) Who needs fluff, just paint them as death guard and pretend like the heresy didnt happen. Say they are a modern look at what the chapter would be like if they hadnt fallen.
If anyone disagrees with you decission twitch your eyes and make some clicking noises and let the voices have their way.
I reckon its a good Idea to have a living Primarch because when the next SM codex comes out and GW needs to creep the rules more and add even more cheese they will release Primarchs as special HQ choices that you dont need to ask your opponent if your allowed to use.
Last edited by dustand; July 29th, 2009 at 08:19.
You can make your army how you want it. You are in the game for you. You should enjoy playing/painting/fluffing.
That being said, if you like PreHeresy Death Guard tactics/color and/or White consul colors, paint your army as such. Then play them as loyal death guard. Validate it all with the Warp Storm (or any other of dustand's good ideas for getting it done)
There are also some fairly good resources out there for players wanting to play preheresy armies. A little searching of the internets will dig up some of the stuff.
I'd go with the Death Guard too. Either Pre Heresy (coz they were definatly awsome then) and base it a lot off the fluff in the Index Astartes article and Flight of the Eisenstein. Or even go further and like Dustand said have them as a still loyal group set now.
If thers one thing the Horus Heresy books have made clear and expanded along is that when the traitor legions turned there were still factions within the the Legions (whole chapters worth in some) that stayed true to the Emperor over their Primarch. While most of these were wiped out in the Istavaan III (or was it IV) betrayal it is very likly that pockets survived. Like the Hero of the Imperium Garro of the Death Guard. And theres your army: do Garro's force that escaped from the Istavaan masacares.
I know the accepted fluff has him becoming a founding member of the Emperor's 'new force for fighting chaos' (inquisition or grey knights, hmmm?) its is never divulged what he actually becomes or how he ends up. This is one of those great plot holes that GW intentionaly leaves to give the fluff wider scope and allow lost games such as yourself to sieze apon an idea and run with it on their own.
Another little side note that may tip the scales for you. Garro and most of the astartes at the time were 1st gen Marines, meaning thay were genetically superior to the marines now. One of the perks of this is that Heresy ear marines were vertually immortal, if they didn't get killed in battle that didn't die. What if Garro and his men were able to just keep fighting? They never met a an enemy that could kill them. They would still be around in the 41st millenium, maybe hunting down their erstwhile brethren as penitence for the great misdeeds of their Primarch and Legion.
Think about it...
The Black Templars and Imperial Fists are open to you; as I recall, Rogal Dorn is considered 'missing in action', although his hand managed to turn up without the rest of him. Black Templars would have the additional benefit of requiring very little repainting.
"My tanks have names, my men have numbers." -Col. Edmund Grahvess, 23rd Kronecker Prison Guard
Intrepid, I don't think he's quite MIA so much as found butcherd and chained to the hull of the Phalanx
I may be wrong but I'm sure it was Dorn that died that way. His hands were salvaged tho, as you said, so the Fists may be trying to clone Dorn based off the genetic template
1) I like Siege armies a lot, but for some reason the idea of having a bunch of drop pods also really appeals to me, which seeing as those two are kind of opposites doesn't help much.
2) I have lots of tactical squads. Lots and lots, each with a heavy bolter... I think I had tailored this army to go against my brother's Orks back in the day and never changed it. I have five tactical squads with heavy bolter, and a couple other choices to round out the army. (hq, oviously, termies, etc).
3) Blue, grey and white all make a good primary or secondary colour pick, and I think red makes a good secondary, but not primary. I have nothing against green nor for it really.
4) I'm fine in any campaign really, I know I hate 'nids (though I don't actually recall ever having played against them). As for friend's armies, I haven't been able to play in a store for a while since the last one in reasonable driving distance closed down, but a new store opened up recently and I'm about to try that out this week. aside from that, my brother plays Orks, though that doesn't really narrow it down as they are everywhere.
5) Again, contradictions abound, but I like both. I like having a deep history I can look into and read about (also having stories to read about the army I play is nice) but I do also like making my own stuff up, so there's no real resolution there either.
Thanks to all of you for taking time out to try and help me out - I hope I can sort this out soon as I've let this issue sit for far too long!
Two more posts while I wasn't looking! If that is the case and it can be proven that Dorn isn't dead, I might consider going that route (or maybe even Crimson fists). As is, I'm still a mess and unable to make up me mind!
The mass of tactical squads and like of white tie in well with Death Guard (yeah I'm still pushing for them coz they a fav of mine too). The Death Guard after all were know to rely heavy on massed bolter fire before closing with the enemy. Depending on the fluff (or maybe the ear) the Death Guard used to have off-white armour with green trims
you could just do pre heresy death guard like me. Its not that difficult and its a lot of fun for modelling conversions, however i use the chaos codex because it allows me to represent the pre heresy Death guard better.
Pre-Heresy Death Guard
"For Mortarion, For Barbarus, For the Emperor!"