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Ok ok, I know that this has been in soooo many posts and threads before this, but I can never seem to find an answer!
The debate of The universe Vs the tyranids..
(don't hit me please)
It seems that people cannot fathom the actual SIZE of the tyranid organism as a whole, I know that there is the argument of chaos wins! or Necrons win! but I really need to strike out a few possibilities.
And please don't state that the outsider is controlling the tyranids, because thats just silly...
Now my main way of thinking of it is that the tyranids were created by the old ones as a sort of "Failsafe" sytem to wipe the galaxy clean is &*#^ hits the fan(which obviously it has...)
This is also going to help me write up a campaign at our club..
any help appreciated!!
People as a whole have difficulty contemplating things of almost (or absolute) infinite size. Try considering the Universe, which could be an infinite amount of space, hard to do, isn't it? It's just something we as humans have trouble doing, possibly because our brains are wired to be focused on the here-and-now, rather than a much, much -much wider picture. That's why people also have trouble thinking about the Tyranid menace, simply because the threat is sooooo vast it can barely be considered. I look at the maps in the Codex, trying to imagine the various Hive Fleets' intrusions into the various systems they invade, the only way I can envision it is by imagining them like they are portrayed on the map, tentacle-like appendages spreading out from a larger organism. Anyway, that's my interpretation of why they can't really envision a Tyranid win.
Onto the actual question, of the armies that could be considered in a position to "win" in this scenario, Tyranids would have to be in the Top 3 Most Likely To Crush All Opposition And Rule The Universe. Other contenders would be the Orks (if they could ever unite under one Universe consuming Waaagh!) and either Necrons or Chaos, take your pick. The Space Marines are too few, Imperial Guard too individually weak and disparate, Witchhunters/Daemonhunters too few, Dark Eldar wouldn't have the numbers or the inclination, Eldar are just trying to -survive- let alone conquer the other factions and Tau are once again lacking in numbers and also lacking in experience. Tyranids are in the best position to overwhelm all opposition simply because they have A. Enormous numbers and B. The ability to co-ordinate attacks over this massive, massive force with alacrity because of the Hive Mind. Chaos Space Marines, although they could be said to have numbers, lack the organisational capacity to pose a real threat, this is the same with the Orks. The Necrons admittedly (IIRC) have the ability to organize themselves, but they don't have the same amount of numbers as the Tyranids, although I suppose we don't know the true extent of their presence in the universe.
If you're running a campaign about the Tyranids overrunning the rest of the factions, I'd put a lot of emphasis on their numbers and co-ordination, as they are their main strengths. I'd also explain how isolated worlds are when they're assaulted by a Tyranid force, since the Shadow In The Warp prevents distress signals alerting anyone else who may be able to help. Concerning the Orks, I'd say focus on keeping each Ork force separate from all the others, I.E assaulting an Ork world and just keep it busy. Tyranids have more numbers at their disposal on a battle-by-battle basis as long as they separate the Orks so the Orks cannot bring their numbers to bear.
Necrons are more troublesome, since they as a race don't offer any juicy biomass. Still, the world the Necrons occupy might have something useful, and if not, the Nids ignore the Necrons completely.
Just keep in mind the way the Tyranids conquer planets and systems. First they send in scout forces to test the defenses of the planet they're trying to capture, the Hive Mind then gathers information from these preliminary strikes. It learns the way the defenders fight, their major defenses and cities, and who leads them. It uses this information to utterly destroy the defenders, the tactics the Tyranids use reflect how the defenders fight, exploiting weaknesses in the defender's battle plan (Eg. going after the mechanized units if it concludes that these are the major threat, or eliminating a key figurehead to sow dissent and lower morale). The defenders cannot call for aid, since the Tyranids psychic presence makes communication out of the planet almost impossible. Gargoyles and Harpies serve as the vanguard, harassing defenders, crawling into their bastions and spitting acid into their eyes. Mycetic Spores clog the air, destroying buildings and unleashing hordes of Hormagaunts and Termagants which are far too numerous for the defenders to kill all of them. Spore Mines bombard the landscape, obliterating bunkers and disrupting comms arrays. Then, if the Tyranids cannot break through with these creatures, they start sending in Trygons, Mawlocs, Tyrannofexes, Carnifexes...all living engines of destruction designed to smash through the biggest tanks and the toughest bastions. Basically the defender is split apart, without any reinforcements, against a far superior force, making it simply a matter of time before they are worn down.
Fluff-wise, the nids are universe devourers. They float in, consume the entire biomass of the galaxy and move on. Each galaxy consumed only serves to increase their size and strength and genetic diversity. It's like a spider fighting an entire ant colony. Sure the spider will take out a few ants. But it will eventually fall to the massed swarm. Just imagine the entire galaxy being assaulted from all sides on all worlds at the same time. Not a pretty picture.
Game-wise we only get to see the scouting vanguards of the tyranid armada because it wouldn't make sense to wipe out the game universe. This allows the game developers to advance the fluff and promote the game to continue it's conflict. I honestly don't think we'll ever see a full-scale nid invasion as it would be counter-productive to playing the game itself.
Why is the thought of the tyranids being at least influenced by the outsider so obsurd? Even if he's not influencing/controlling them he's one of the most powerful entities the galaxy has ever seen, has been off doing something, is completely deranged and is coming back for revenge. It ain't going to be pretty.
I'm biased, but if it were going to the end I can't see how anything will beat the necrons. Maybe that's because my main army is necrons, and I like to think I'm controlling the armies of the ultimate lords of the universe.
They've already got the technology to seal off the warp, just haven't been able to deploy it on the scale needed yet. The tyranids would ignore necron worlds, passing straight by them. Even if the tyranids destroy all life in the galaxy, the c'tan are smart enough to just sit and wait it out again. The nids will pass and the few fleeing remanents of humanity can populate the galaxy again, ready to be harvested.
Even if it came to a fight and the nids outnumbered the necrons, I think the necrons technology would get them the victory in the end. Also the nid way of fighting just wouldn't work as well against the necrons.
There is no way of knowing exactly how many necrons or tyranids there are though, so like alot of fluff in 40k this can bounce backwards and forwards and be argued for ages.
I think the thought of the oldones creating the nids is a bit odd. They weren't jealous and bitter like the necrons. Unless they are coming back I don't think they mind who gets the galaxy. I think the nids just came from a different galaxy.
Last edited by Dheorl; February 24th, 2010 at 20:16.
OK guys, thanks for the quick responses, but now what I really need to know, could the chaos gods possible have any effect whatsoever on the hive mind? A few things leads me to believe that no, the cannot, I mean Ive been doing some reading.. and It jus seems that chaos isnt able to do that. regarding the outsider theory, ive always wondered what most people think on this, but do you think that tyranid synapse creatures utilize the warp or not?
I think the c'tan effecting the hive mind is much more likely then the chaos gods. They are smarter and more likely to co-opperate with each other to have an effect in the mortal realm.
But right now they arent exactly the most powerful force in the galaxy, Theyr like the bug in my cookie, Ill just eat around them.
There's no fluff about Chaos getting into the Hive Mind, nor of Chaos-affected Tyranids, so the answer is at least 'not yet'. Also, I can't imagine how synapse could not be Warp-based; if it was based on normal physics then it could be jammed like a radio signal, and we know that Tyranids make heavy use of the Warp anyway (the Shadow, safe Warp travel, ability to manufacture psykers at will, etc).could the chaos gods possible have any effect whatsoever on the hive mind?One, it's well-established that Tyranids are not native to our galaxy, so the Necrons haven't found them before the rest of us; in fact, they were probably the last to find out since they're still mostly dormant, have no psychic ability (blocking psychic ability isn't the same thing) and aren't edible. Two, deranged minds don't plan and scheme (even Chaos is 'sane' in the context of the Warp). Three, even if the Outsider could scheme, it has no particular enemies to direct the Tyranids at...and a lot of tasty life force to lose if the bugs aren't shut down. Four, if an entity was powerful enough to dominate the Hive Mind then it could also psychically snuff out the Emperor from the far side of the galaxy. That hasn't happened. And five, if the Outsider could interfere with the Hive Mind then the rest of the Mind would surely identify it as a critical threat. The next Tyrannic invasion would be a spearhead straight to the Outsider's home, ending its threat.Why is the thought of the tyranids being at least influenced by the outsider so absurd?
"My tanks have names, my men have numbers." -Col. Edmund Grahvess, 23rd Kronecker Prison Guard
As for Chaos affecting the Hive Mind...I'd say the Hive Mind is much too vast, too complex, and too damn -different- from a usual "Mind" that Chaos usually affects. That's not to say it couldn't, just that it could only affect a small amount, say a Hive Tyrant's mind during an invasion. But there isn't really any fluff on Chaos affecting Tyranids at all anyway.