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Thread: Foresight

  1. #1
    Senior Member Sancraer's Avatar
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    Foresight

    No doubt this has been answered somewhere but I can't find it.

    Basically, if powerful pyskers such as farseers, sanguinius and the Emperor see/predict the future how come they didn't see the fall/the heresy/anything bad or random happening?


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    Senior Member MC Bone Giant's Avatar
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    Reading the future is insanely difficult. There are so many possibilities. Which one is true? The tides of the warp are always changing. But to answer your question, people did see things happening. I would highly suggest you read the Horus Heresy novels if you want to know how things came about. The puzzle that is the HH is convoluted with many different factors in play.
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    Son of LO The_Giant_Mantis's Avatar
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    Some Eldar did see the fall.. that's why a good number of them tried to leave the Empire. Slannesh was already making itself known though and a lot of Eldar minds had become so warped by their own decadence that they were pretty much unsalvageable. They were ritually sacrificing each other in huge numbers and didn't seem completely aware of why they were doing it.

    In the older fluff I think it's implied that Eldrad Ulthran (who must have been pretty young at the time, even if he was a seer) predicted the heresy but chose not to intervene.

    Finally, the Chaos Gods are the undisputed masters of the warp. Since you have to draw on psychic powers to divine the future, it's quite feasible the chaos gods could block or mask events which they have a hand it, provided it was important enough to warrant their extremely vast and fragmented attention (and the Heresy certainly was).

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    Formerly BrotherAzriel Horus Lupercal's Avatar
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    Its acctualy belived that he did try and intervine, the Emperor didnt belive a word of it, takeing it for Xenos trickery, its also belived the Eldar tried to kill Angron as a Child, but faild.

    Its possible that the Emperors own Psycic might stopped the farseers from seeing what he was doing.

    also, Sanguinius knew he would die, but did what he did anyway, makeing it all the more noble, he also dreamed of his brothers fighting but couldent understand it for what it was.
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    Senior Member Intrepid's Avatar
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    Well, Magnus of the Thousand Sons DID see the Heresy coming and raised the alarm...but the Emperor chose to genocide his Legion instead of listening. It doesn't come out in the current versions of the backstory, but if you go back to the Index Astartes days the Emperor pretty much brought the Heresy upon himself. Every Traitor Legion either had good reason to turn on him or were acting dangerously prior to the event. He was willfully blind.

    Also, the Emperor was always extremely suspicious of psykers and strongly discouraged warpcraft in any form. There weren't many humans with the ability to predict the future back then, and most of them would have been hunted by Imperial forces and in no mood to prove themselves guilty of a capital crime.

    I'm rather annoyed that Sanguinius is now the visionary fortune-teller Primarch. Again in the Index Astartes days, the only Primarch (aside from Magnus) who could see the future accurately was Conrad Kurze of the Night Lords. He had Cassandra syndrome, though; couldn't convince others of what was going to happen, and most of his (usually dark) prophecies were disturbingly self-fulfilling. Great guy; too bad he's been edited out of 40k. Life was cooler when his superhuman terrorists were the only guys you could trust. Now it's all "Emperor good, Chaos bad"...rant, rant....
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    Senior Member Sancraer's Avatar
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    You would have thought, being the most powerful human pysker by a long way, the Emperor would have foreseen some all these stupid mistakes he keeps making.
    Unless futures concerning individuals who possess psychic ability are the least predictable.

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    Formerly BrotherAzriel Horus Lupercal's Avatar
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    in the current story style its very clear the emperor brought it on himself, have you read any of the HH books? he totaly had that shit comeing.

    Curze coundent accuratly see the future, he never has been able to, his visions were painful fragmented things, he only ever saw violence, thats why he didnt stop his legion becomeing what he did, he hated it, thats why he allowed himself to die, to prove himself right.

    Sanguinius had limited foresight, and mainly it was his own demise he foresaw.

    The reason the Emperor was so anti psyker is beacuse he was trying to hide the knowlage fo the Chaos gods existance, he owed them one, he turned his back on them with his "age or reason and since" crap, he knew full well of the gods existence yet denied them, even convinceing people deamons were xenos from another universe.
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  9. #8
    Son of LO ze_poodle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Intrepid View Post
    I'm rather annoyed that Sanguinius is now the visionary fortune-teller Primarch. Again in the Index Astartes days, the only Primarch (aside from Magnus) who could see the future accurately was Conrad Kurze of the Night Lords. He had Cassandra syndrome, though; couldn't convince others of what was going to happen, and most of his (usually dark) prophecies were disturbingly self-fulfilling. Great guy; too bad he's been edited out of 40k. Life was cooler when his superhuman terrorists were the only guys you could trust. Now it's all "Emperor good, Chaos bad"...rant, rant....
    It's not a recent thing. Sanguinius has had psychic foresight ever since his death fighting Horus was introduced to the canon. It just wasn't very powerful or controlled, like Kurze's. Neither one predates the other by a noticeable margin (I think Kurze's was only introduced in his IA article). Also, the Night Lords haven't been written out at all...there's little recent fluff on them, but that's because the latest Chaos 'dex focusses on renegade Chapters more than the traitor Legions. All their origin (and the moral ambiguity tied to it) is still canon.

    Anyway, the reason why foresight is said to not work all that well is because it doesn't predict what will happen. It presents a number of threads of what is likely to happen, often hinging on really minor details; there is an 82% chance that this hive fleet will eat this planet if not diverted here, for example. The Eldar Farseers gain a tactical advantage because they pick the best option based on probabilities. It's still never a certain outcome, and the odds tend to change radically in a crisis. Librarians are supposed to engage in this sort of behaviour all the time, even when in combat, and use the information to advise the commander as to the likely success of such-and-such an action.

    The way other psykers or large warp storms can mess with foresight is not by blocking the psyker's ability to see the future (which would be very hard) but by screwing with the probabilities, so that he can see all future threads but they all seem equally likely and are therefore equally useless.
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    Sir Proofreader Deadstar_MRC's Avatar
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    Having just finished reading A Thousand Sons (or whatever that book about The Thousand Sons is called) it's more or less confirmed what I already knew about the Horus Heresy. Specifically this bit;

    Magnus knew Horus would betray the Emperor. He knew much of what was going to transpire that would lead Horus to betray the Emperor, and did what he could to prevent it. When that didn't work he attempted to directly warn the Emperor, but that didn't go so well either.

    I think one problem was that the Emperor was too trusting. He didn't believe Horus was capable of betraying him, and hence wouldn't have believed any vision he saw or any that was reported to him, possibly thinking it was trickery to attempt to get him to turn against his own Sons.

    The other problem I can see with prophecies and visions of the future is that it's difficult to make use of that knowledge. A lot of the time people aren't sure what they've seen until the event they've foreseen actually arrives (and then it's all like, hey, I remember seeing this, now it all makes sense!) or, by working to prevent what they've seen, they inadvertently make said event more likely.

    Does that make any sense at all?
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    Senior Member Intrepid's Avatar
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    Does that make any sense at all?
    I think you're referring to the recursive logic problem? If you can predict that something will certainly happen and then use that knowledge to prevent it from happening...then that certain future still isn't going to happen.
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