What Are Hruds?

[SimulatedSnowman]

Second, that so-called Hrud in the picture has massive claws for hands, clearly built for nothing but ripping, tearing, and killing.

Considering that's straight out of the Xenology book, I don't know if you can refer to it as "so-called". I know that GW has many instances where your own imagination determines the fluff, but that clearly does not look like a space rat.

I severely doubt that something like that could manipulate minute circuitry or connect small wires or whatever with such massive claws.

They also have the psychic ability to bend light around them. Since when did fluff have to be true to life?

Evolution grants either size and physical power, or intelligence and adaptibility; usually not both.

Not necessarily true, and also purely a perspective arguement. The smartest, most powerful beetle in the world is still nothing against the stupidest, weakest polar bear. It's a moot point though, because once again, you are using real-life rules for a very fictional game.

And besides, when that thing is as big and powerful as it is, why in the world would it need technology for anything?

Why do Eldar need jetbikes if they are already fast? Why do Space Marines need armor if they are already tough? Why do Orks need guns if they are clearly strong?

But I really don't think that the creature in that picture would care about or even know how to use anything more advanced than a huge rock. It wouldn't even have to. As I said, it's too bestial.

I agree to some extent, because that picture certainly doesn't illustrate a high tech looking type of intelligence, but Tyranids are possibly the most advanced life form in the 40k galaxy and are completely devoid of artificial technology as well as being bestial looking. Or Orks for that matter. Stupid as heck but their technology suits their needs perfectly. Who is to say that the Hrud (as defined by the Xenology picture) don't have technology that doesn't require delicate circuits and fits perfectly within ridiculous claws?

In fact the picture of that thing makes me wonder how it even could stand up on two legs. It looks like it will fall apart any minute.

Well considering that the other picture that Mantis posted was of the Umbra, and the Umbra are basically just a sphere, it would be safe to assume that an Umbra's main mode of attack would be to roll at you. Of course the picture shows much different. Case in point, looks are deceiving.

I guess the whole thing that bothers me about the Hrud=Space Skaven line of thought is similar to what Mantis alluded to briefly. Simply because a race exists does not mean it has to be playable, and relating Hrud to Skaven just seems like a stretch at best, and at worst, the wishful thinking of Skaven players.

[The_Giant_Mantis]

It's not aesthetics, it's biology. First off, if I were to judge the two proposed Hrud appearances on attractiveness, neither of them would be getting any prizes. Second, that so-called Hrud in the picture has massive claws for hands, clearly built for nothing but ripping, tearing, and killing.

A mole has massive claws for hands.. is it a relentless killing machine?

Actually, predatory animals tend to have small proportional claws. Oversized claws tend to be digging impliments, which I'd guess is what those are meant to be. The key point is also that they're opposable, indicating manual dexterity and gripping ability.

You have a point about wiring circuitry, but then.. humans don't wire circuitry by hand. A soldering iron doesn't require fine finger dexterity, it just needs to be gripped and manipulated. And SimulatedSnowman has a point.. if they can manipulate light, maybe they manipulate electromagnetism in the same way. They could actually make them far more gifted electronics engineers than humans.

Such a bestial thing wouldn't be able to develop technology. Evolution grants either size and physical power, or intelligence and adaptibility; usually not both.

Actually.. there are a good deal of highly intelligent large predators, but that's not the point because that animal is clearly not a predator.

And besides, when that thing is as big and powerful as it is, why in the world would it need technology for anything?

Well.. most of that matter is dead flesh. It's not like it's got mighty muscles or anything. The whole point of it is that it's a shambling pile of redundant waste matter.. resiliant and incredibly tough, but not exactly the consumate predator.

But I really don't think that the creature in that picture would care about or even know how to use anything more advanced than a huge rock. It wouldn't even have to. As I said, it's too bestial.

Again, you're assuming its purpose is to hunt, and that it has to care about killing things to survive..

Hrud have always lived in the detritus of other civilizations. They didn't evolve as predators, but as scavengers, and they're well adapted for it going by Xenology. Because most of the body isn't being mantained by respiration, they're tough and can survive on very little food relative to a normal animal. Like most scavengers, they're intelligent and curious, and especially good at tinkering with and adapting other technology (the vivisected example has an Imperial bionic arm welded on.) Why defend yourself when you're practically undetectable and can just stand in a shadow and be invisible.. why kill when you can scavenge what you need from others?

On a narrative level.. I think they actually work better as shambley invisible bogeymen than space rats. What on earth would rats be doing in space? Admittedly, rats tend to fill the same evolutionary role in modern cities as Hrud are supposed to fill in 40k, but come on.. Skaven exist because rats were quite important in the medieval world which Warhammer is a fantasy modelling of. What do rats have to do with outer space?

It looks like it will fall apart any minute.

I think the whole point is that they're designed to fall apart.. If hit or shot, the waste matter takes the impact and comes off, but it protects the important stuff inside. It's an interesting idea for a natural defense mechanism.

It does look really ungainly, but then, it's an invisible scavenger.. it doesn't need to be a lithe and graceful thing.

[Dawnrunner]

I'm sure they're the Loxatl, and I'm fairly sure they're different to Slaani as in the Xenos section of the 4th Gen. Rulebook, there's a picture of a Slaani and then a box-out for the Loxatl.

Good call there! My mistake. Yes, the brood in Gaunt's Ghosts is indeed three Loxatl rather than Slaani. There's still a picture of a Slaan in the 4th ed rulebook, tho.

[omegoku]

There will defiantly be rats in space. maybe not ratmen, but def rats. Everywhere man goes, rats will follow. Unless the Hrud eat them or something.
I prefer the Xenology Hrud to the Skavens in space angle. Although the Xenology type pretty much rules out their inclusion as an army in 40k.

[Dawnrunner]

I prefer the Xenology Hrud to the Skavens in space angle. Although the Xenology type pretty much rules out their inclusion as an army in 40k.

That's the whole point, though. The Hrud are supposed to be a fully-fledged race in their own right---not necessarily playable, but developed and "civilized" enough so as to develop advanced technology, seek to colonize planets, and make inroads into Imperial-controlled space, and thus merit significant levels of Imperial attention (i.e. Space Marines and Inquisition). And not only Imperial attention; there are examples of conflicts between Hrud and Orks, for example. The Space Skaven angle makes this a whole lot more possible than the Xenology angle, which makes the Hrud out to be more of a bestial and isolated threat. I think of it this way:

Xenology Hrud: "Captain, the servitors discovered a Hrud in cargo-hold 7. It's rather tenacious, but we're sending the provosts down to deal with it. It shouldn't take long."

Space Skaven Hrud: "Captain, there are several Hrud in cargo-holds 3, 7, and 8! They fled into the ventilation system, and we believe there are more located in the engine rooms! We've also discovered that the navigation systems have been tampered with! It's an infestation! We'll have to quarantine the ship before we eliminate every last one!"

[SimulatedSnowman]

I bet if you wanted to get really really in depth with the fluff of the 40K universe you could find several races that are supposed to exhibit the qualities you mentioned that only a few people have heard of. I personally can't recall any fluff (besides Xenology) that deals significantly with Hrud.

Plus in the long run, I guess that goes to show that in the 40K universe there could possibly be billions of races, and even ones that are sophisticated or "significant" are still just minor in comparison to the major (ie playable) races.

[Zarak]

Space Skaven Hrud: "Captain, there are several Hrud in cargo-holds 3, 7, and 8! They fled into the ventilation system, and we believe there are more located in the engine rooms! We've also discovered that the navigation systems have been tampered with! It's an infestation! We'll have to quarantine the ship before we eliminate every last one!"

And just why cant this apply to the image of the Xenology Hrud? I think you are overestimating the size of the Hrud in the picture. They are hardly hulking, lumbering brutes. I interpreted the picture as them being smallish (relative to some of the other races out there) gangly creatures, able to bend in twist themselves in ways that are inhuman (forget double-jointed, that thing looks like it is made up of joints), in order to pull themselves through ventilation systems or fuel lines.

[Jaffar_Hasad]

Space Skaven Hrud: "Captain, there are several Hrud in cargo-holds 3, 7, and 8! They fled into the ventilation system, and we believe there are more located in the engine rooms! We've also discovered that the navigation systems have been tampered with! It's an infestation! We'll have to quarantine the ship before we eliminate every last one!"

That's exactly how I see them. 40k makes a lot of connections between real life things and events, so why can't there be a rat like race? I'm not saying they are skaven, but can't they just be little ugly things that act like rats? Xenology has been pointed out that there are a lot of odd claims in the book too. After searching for the book, I haven't even heard of the author. Who on earth is Simon Spurrier, and what else has he done for 40k?

After a quick search, he has done 2 other books. 1 good, another, terrible. Lord of the Night (which is amazing I hear, and I bought today), and Fire Warrior (aweful I hear, and is full of fluff heresy).

We have that, against 2 editions of 40k rule books.

As for fluff, I remember reading a quick side comment an IG or SM commander made about fighting off a Hrud group that took over an armory. I can't remember which book that was though, because it was only a paragraph out of the story.

[The_Giant_Mantis]

That's the whole point, though. The Hrud are supposed to be a fully-fledged race in their own right---not necessarily playable, but developed and "civilized" enough so as to develop advanced technology, seek to colonize planets, and make inroads into Imperial-controlled space, and thus merit significant levels of Imperial attention (i.e. Space Marines and Inquisition). And not only Imperial attention; there are examples of conflicts between Hrud and Orks, for example. The Space Skaven angle makes this a whole lot more possible than the Xenology angle, which makes the Hrud out to be more of a bestial and isolated threat.

You're still inferring all this from the appearance of the race in question.. which is an utterly flawed argument.

Xenology Hrud are never presented as bestial and isolated. They're an ancient, advanced civilization which just happens to be composed of scavengers rather than hunter gathering omnivores. To assume that that makes a race "uncivilized" is a pretty terrible case of xenocentrism.

And yes, they demand attention.. Do you let rats run around in your house? Just because the race in question isn't a badass horde which overuns planets and carves out star empires doesn't mean they're not major enough. They may not try to wipe out the societies they depend on, but they're certainly presented as an annoyance, and the belligerance of the Imperium towards xenos races makes it highly likely they'll come to blows with Imperial forces where discovered.

Xenology Hrud: "Captain, the servitors discovered a Hrud in cargo-hold 7. It's rather tenacious, but we're sending the provosts down to deal with it. It shouldn't take long."

Well, they are invisible.

"Captain. You remember that maintenance servitor who went missing last week? Well, we've found some remains. Looks like something stripped it for parts. I think we might have a nest of Hrud aboard, sir. We'll have to quarantine the ship and break out the motion sensors. I've had the men split into groups and we'll start sweeping the ship.. Wait a minute.. That shadow wasn't there five minutes ago. I think we've got one.."

And prior to Xenology, Hrud have never been presented as your Space Skaven versions suggests because they've never been covered before, and given that rat people have no real way of sneaking on board starships (which tend to be docked in pretty inaccessable areas like the top of hive cities) there's no evidence that the Hrud were originally intended as scavengers. That itself comes from Xenology. The Space Skaven Hrud were probably intended as just another race with starships and big guns, only they're rat people.

Xenology did something inventive with that, and while it's a bit wierd, it does make both narrative and conceptual sense.

We have that, against 2 editions of 40k rule books.

Do you like the Horus Heresy books?

Because they're based on material written by a company which makes collectable card games, and they contradict a huge quantity of official GW material. Nonetheless, you'll find the vast majority of people here view them as acceptable fluff.

I'll admit, Xenology has flaws. I'm just presenting it as an alternate hypothesis to show that Hrud don't have to be Space Skaven. Hrud have never been covered in any detail anywhere else beyond having one not very revealing picture. Xenology, in my opinion, gave them a very interesting writeup which had far more potential than the rat people. I know that's just my opinion, and to be honest if you like Space Skaven then who am I to spoil your fun, but trying to discredit books probably isn't the best way to resolve this, as it's all totally subjective.

[Jaffar_Hasad]

Do you like the Horus Heresy books?

Because they're based on material written by a company which makes collectable card games, and they contradict a huge quantity of official GW material. Nonetheless, you'll find the vast majority of people here view them as acceptable fluff.

Even if the material is based on a CCG, the books themselves are written by BL authors who have done much fluff writing in the past. Heck, Dan Abnett wrote the first one, and he's liquid amazing.

And I don't see them as rats. Just very rat like in how they move and act.

How did rats get to North America? They certainly didn't build their own ships and sail over, and the sailors didn't keep them as pets. They snuck on, and did a decent job at not being caught. Space rats would do the same, sneaking into cargo holds inside packages. From there they would move around as they please. The xenology Hrud just make it seem like the leisurely walk onto ships which are docked and just hide in a corner the whole trip.