Old necron feel is still alive! Stop the hate!!! - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
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    Old necron feel is still alive! Stop the hate!!!

    Wow, i really can't understand all this hate on the new Necron codex's fluff. If your a fan of the old style "Terminator /harvest " feel of the OOD codex then i ask you to open the new codex to page 16 and read "The empire of the severed" this is your "Terminator" sect here. Sure the C'tan stuff has been changed this codex but really, what other force has a (demi)god in its back pocket? Imperium? well good luck getting the emperor's bones to fight for you on the field so there's a no-go, Eldar? that avatar (who dies super easy to ranged) just seems like its missing a update calling it a shard that can go home and be summoned behind another set of bronze doors at a later battle( i see that in a new codex). Chaos? the most active gods around fluff-wise...well there great behind the scenes and know how to make a daemon ..but you don't see slaanesh or the others in a codex chart, why coz there all to damn powerful and would be game changing or the only things used...so how do we even the field? we cut out necrons closest thing..we SHARD the C'tan i for 1 think it was a excellent option rather then the next..to lose it.

    So now we have the Terminator feel covered, a reason the C'tan are chopped down but what of the harvester part of the old codex the flesh/souls that used to go to the c'tan? i ask you to read Page 16 again but the section just to the left of empire of the severed called "Tranis, the raider's moon" ...OMG it explains the "Harvest!!!" so really all people had to do was stop crying for a second and actually read the codex, use a little imagination (heaven forbid a sci/fantasy game ever require a little imagination!) and for the sake of the long lost internet integrity stop crying over spilled milk. As it turns out the milk wasn't spilled at all it was just in your other hand!

    there you go if you like the old feel you can smile again a little bit..or keep crying in the corner till your game starts while the rest of us can choose to stick to either the old feel due to above listed or have a blast with infinite more options.

    Last edited by Warforged; November 19th, 2011 at 04:10.

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  4. #2
    Son of LO The_Giant_Mantis's Avatar
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    A word of advice.. If you're defending a commercial product on the internet against detractors who didn't like it and you catch yourself getting genuinely angry, then you need to rethink your priorities. If you like a product, the only reason to become angry at people who don't is that part of you listens to what they're saying and maybe doubts whether they might be right and whether you're really as happy as you think you are. People have a right, however pathetic it might make them, to be angry about a product which disappoints them - but the internet is like Nietzche's abyss, gaze at it too long and you'll become the same loathesome fanboy you hate.

    Like any storytelling project fluff relies on suspension of disbelief, and some things simply kill suspension of disbelief for some people. If GW introduced a canon chapter called the 'chicken marines' who fired bolter shells filled with rotten eggs and screamed poultry themed battle cries many people would complain, then a few crazy people would likely do what you're doing and suggest that simply because you don't have to play the chicken marines we should all welcome the greater choice for those who do.

    Then, I would hope, some people would explain to those people that the mere presence of a defective element within a narrative ruins the narrative, kind of like how Jar Jar Binks single handedly took the Phantom Menace from disappointing to godawful. It doesn't matter to me how many souless terminator necrons I'm 'allowed' to play if they're sharing a setting with an equal or greater number of robotic versions of skeletor.

    I've never played Necrons, heck, I don't even really play 40k any more. I care about the fluff not because it allows me to fulfil some kind of power fantasy of leading my dream army of killing machines, but because I like some of the story elements. My issue is not change, my issue is the glut of bad storytelling and increasing infantalization of the fluff, which is in no way limited to this Codex but of which it is certainly a good example.

    Now that I've got that out of my system, I think I should probably bow gracefully out of the fluff forum, at least for a bit.
    Last edited by The_Giant_Mantis; November 19th, 2011 at 00:05.

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    Double Clutching Weasel Klajorne's Avatar
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    While I'll generally agree with the sentiment of your post, telling those that disagree with you to "QQ more" isn't going to win anybody over.

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    Interrogator-Chaplain pilot00's Avatar
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    So apparently the fluff mediocrity and outright change of the necrons is justifiable because no other faction can have gods on the table top...
    Imprisoned gods no less...Imprisoned gods who dont remember who they are but still use powers they dont know they have...Interesting.
    Their presence has been rationalized 100% successfully...Now onto find a way to make tzeentch appear too and well all be happy again.

    we SHARD the C'tan i for 1 think it was a excellent option rather then the next..to lose it.
    And the last and greatest hit above.The mentality of:I want to eat a hamburger.I am thankful that i can eat the hamburger even it had been stepped on by a boot which had stepped on fesses before...Well i for one would die from starvation before eating that thank you.

    Like any storytelling project fluff relies on suspension of disbelief, and some things simply kill suspension of disbelief for some people. If GW introduced a canon chapter called the 'chicken marines' who fired bolter shells filled with rotten eggs and screamed poultry themed battle cries many people would complain, then a few crazy people would likely do what you're doing and suggest that simply because you don't have to play the chicken marines we should all welcome the greater choice for those who do.

    Then, I would hope, some people would explain to those people that the mere presence of a defective element within a narrative ruins the narrative, kind of like how Jar Jar Binks single handedly took the Phantom Menace from disappointing to godawful. It doesn't matter to me how many souless terminator necrons I'm 'allowed' to play if they're sharing a setting with an equal or greater number of robotic versions of skeletor.
    My issue is not change, my issue is the glut of bad storytelling and increasing infantalization of the fluff, which is in no way limited to this Codex but of which it is certainly a good example.
    Those two are the points of us deviants without imagination who have an unhealthy attachment to fluff and cant accept change most commonly raise.Rep to you Mantis.

    EDIT: Dont worry about the chicken marines,it will happen in due time...After all they are better than no marines right?
    Last edited by pilot00; November 29th, 2011 at 01:58.
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  8. #5
    Double Clutching Weasel Klajorne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pilot00 View Post
    And the last and greatest hit above.The mentality of:I want to eat a hamburger.I am thankful that i can eat the hamburger even it had been stepped on by a boot which had stepped on fesses before...Well i for one would die from starvation before eating that thank you.
    Geez, you want some cheese with that hyperbole?

    Quote Originally Posted by pilot00 View Post
    Those two are the points of us deviants without imagination who have an unhealthy attachment to fluff and cant accept change most commonly raise.Rep to you Mantis.
    I actually read something enlightening over at Warseer (wow, I never thought I'd utter those words) that talked about art throughout the western world making a general sway toward a more heroic stint. The poster mentioned that the original 40k fluff (being an expression of art in the manner of story telling), was written during a time over relative prosperity, and reflected that by being more introspective and angsty. This manifested in the anti-hero archetype that ran rampant throughout creative works during that period, and Warhammer 40k was just one incarnation of this mindset. Now, being in harder economic times and possibly just a retaliation against that mainstream darkness, art has transitioned to a more heroic bend. Warhammer 40k is just one instance of art changing throughout the western world.

    Now, granted, those of us that got into 40k in the last couple decades of the past century are not going to accept this transition as freely as someone getting into it for first time in the present. We'll lash out in the same way as if they re-wrote optimus prime as some hard-as-nails anti-hero (yes, I understand this can countermand my above point, but one thing at a time). But for 40k to grow and develop, it needs to adjust to the modern world, and it needs to reflect the modern world's taste. And the modern world has been changing.

    I am, personally, a little too out of touch with western culture to really say how much truth there is in all this, but I thought it as more interesting interpretation to the view that Games Workshop has been "dumbing down" their product. Because I do feel confident to say that such a sentiment is false. They may be changing their target market, which I doubt. It *has* always, and always *will be*, adolescent boys. It's more likely that the stories the adolescent boys of today are interested in are different than the stories that adolescent boys of our day were interested in. I feel like this is the more logical conclusion.

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    Interrogator-Chaplain pilot00's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klajorne View Post
    Geez, you want some cheese with that hyperbole?
    No but i guess you like your cheese stomped,no?At least i like mine fresh.

    EDIT:I just cant resist...The necron new fluff actually got affected by the recession...So in the deamon dex(whenever it comes) they must not have access to soulgrinders because the hellforges had run bankrupt and the deamons now are unemployed.

    Or better:Have the next necron codex have a new troop choice:Beggar warriors...Now that would reflect a lot of todays psychic...

    Now THATS a hyperbole.With stomped cheese nonetheless.I might just get to used to it finally it seems...

    I dont want to discredit the above statements Klajorne but IMHO all this 'psychological background' is not an excuse for lame art.
    Last edited by pilot00; November 29th, 2011 at 14:56.
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    Double Clutching Weasel Klajorne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pilot00 View Post
    No but i guess you like your cheese stomped,no?At least i like mine fresh.

    EDIT:I just cant resist...The necron new fluff actually got affected by the recession...So in the deamon dex(whenever it comes) they must not have access to soulgrinders because the hellforges had run bankrupt and the deamons now are unemployed.

    Or better:Have the next necron codex have a new troop choice:Beggar warriors...Now that would reflect a lot of todays psychic...

    Now THATS a hyperbole.With stomped cheese nonetheless.I might just get to used to it finally it seems...

    I dont want to discredit the above statements Klajorne but IMHO all this 'psychological background' is not an excuse for lame art.
    But that's my point: it's not "lame art". It's different. It's different than the game was when we started. But it's also targeted at a different subset of people than when we started (ie: the kids of today versus the kids of yesterday). We are no longer the target market for 40k. We are no longer GW's "bread and butter", no matter how much we, personally, are interested in the hobby. That torch has been passed. GW now has to cater to the new target market, and adjust their product to the tastes of the new kids. It may come as a shock to us, because we are not the new kids.

    But don't confuse the issue. Just because it's different, does not make it objectively better or worse. The old stuff may have been subjectively better to us, because it was catered to us, and relatively, the new stuff may seem worse, because it is *not* catered to us. And that's what I'm getting after you about. It's different, but the old stuff wasn't the pinnacle of art, no matter how fondly we remember it. It had its flaws and inconsistencies, or in the case of the necrons, complete lack of material. And I think it's taking it to a bit of an extreme to say that the new stuff is "crap on a shoe", as you put it.

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    Son of LO Marius the Possessed's Avatar
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    One of the things people love about the 40k universe is how varied it is, and how virtually anything you can come up with can be considered canon and valid, as long as you don't try to resurrect the Emperor or something.

    At least, people love that until something they particularly enjoyed is changed. Then they moan and cry saying 'why why why', even when, as is my opinion regarding the Necrons, the background finally gains depth and character. I mean, honestly, before Fall of Damnos, all Necron badguys were faceless and bland, with no variation between the two. Now we have infighting and royal court politics, we have character quirks, and we have actual, real motives (rather than just kill everything, kill everything). Now enemies are cookie-cutter foes that you feel no real sense of accomplishment when you defeat, because there's simply another four dozen of the exact same waiting in the wings. That's the Tyranid's thing, and even then it's a bit of a cop-out fluffwise.

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    Double Clutching Weasel Klajorne's Avatar
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    Yeah, but even Tyranids started getting their own style and had more depth. Aside from each unit having some character and function (ie: rippers break everything down so that it can more easily be turned to goo food for the big hive ships), and some actual tyranid charactes (ie: swarmlord), the fleets themselves started to get character (battle tactics preferred by each hive fleet in the same way that each space marine chapter has preferred tactics). We even know the motivation and the tactical warfar through evolution method employed by the hive mind.

    In short, everybody uses Tyranids as an example of "faceless masses", but even Tyranids have more fluff depth than Old Necrons (who were scary and old, and nothing more).

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    Interrogator-Chaplain pilot00's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klajorne View Post
    But that's my point: it's not "lame art". It's different. It's different than the game was when we started. But it's also targeted at a different subset of people than when we started (ie: the kids of today versus the kids of yesterday). We are no longer the target market for 40k. We are no longer GW's "bread and butter", no matter how much we, personally, are interested in the hobby. That torch has been passed. GW now has to cater to the new target market, and adjust their product to the tastes of the new kids. It may come as a shock to us, because we are not the new kids.

    But don't confuse the issue. Just because it's different, does not make it objectively better or worse. The old stuff may have been subjectively better to us, because it was catered to us, and relatively, the new stuff may seem worse, because it is *not* catered to us. And that's what I'm getting after you about. It's different, but the old stuff wasn't the pinnacle of art, no matter how fondly we remember it. It had its flaws and inconsistencies, or in the case of the necrons, complete lack of material. And I think it's taking it to a bit of an extreme to say that the new stuff is "crap on a shoe", as you put it.
    As i told you before i am not an old timer in 40k.I read the old fluff AFTER i read the new books.I dont remember anything.I have the books and read them.I make comparisons and i reach conclusions.So before you repeat it a third time any other points?

    Nobody said that it was the pinnacle of art or that it was art anyway.But there are borders between something believable/passable and something utterly outrageous.Not that i consider the later to be the case with the new necs mind you.But it is progressively going that way.

    So let us all hail change for changes shake because we have no other options and because we are old timers(even though we arent really).All hail Tzeench and Obama his avatar!
    Last edited by pilot00; November 30th, 2011 at 12:50.
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