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What Are We All Sick Of With Fluff?

4K views 56 replies 29 participants last post by  darkreever 
#1 ·
I decided to make this topic after reading another forum that shall remain nameless.

Am I the only one sick of reading fluff that is either ridiculously inaccurate or plain stupid? Im not having a go at peoples efforts or such, I'm only talking about people who insist on making ridiculous exagerated back stories or rehashing other peoples tired stories. So I doing a quick "rules topic", to give people an idea of not what to do.

Starting, heres my quick dos and don'ts.

1/Your chapter isn't the oldest in the imperium. They are'nt secretly the first founded chapter, the Dark Angels are, all the fluff says so. Don't rewrite the history for your convenience.

2/ Your chapter isn't the most loyal there has ever been to the Emperor. The Grey Knights are, all the fluff says so. Don't rewrite the history for your convenience.

3/ Your chapter aren't the Emperor's personal bodyguards. The Adeptus Custodes are, all the fluff says so. Don't....you get the idea.

4/ Chaos Tau. No

5/ Your chapter was cut off from the warp from the rest of your chapter for hundreds of years.....so was everyones else it seems. Anyone else actually not been cut off from the imperium by a warp storm/ship crash etc? This really has been done to death.

6/ Necron Gods that apparently control the Tyranids, the Tau, The Harlequins, The US Senate, The Girl Guides etc. Ok Necron players, can you stop trying to convince us a C'tan is behind EVERYTHING?

7/ Cypher is Cypher. He is not the Emperor. He is not Lion El Jonson. (told to me by a GW source himself for those who would argue)

8/ Female Space Marines. No. Space Marines must be male, the zygotes are keyed to male hormone types etc as stated in the fluff.


Anyone else care to add?
 
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#2 ·
ill add

1+2+3. i agree totally
4. i support chaos tau as much as i support nazi ig. which is openly
5. not every chapter has ever been cut by a crash or warp storm, the original legions were not either. in this i defend my own fluff, but i dont look for excuses like that to disagree <_<
6. no comment
7. while cypher is clearly neither johnson or the emperor. some gw staff dont have a clue about what they tell you. some dont understand the rules, some dont understand the fluff. their all out their..
8. i dont know why you brought zygotes into this, they have to do with making babies not marines. marines to be merely get the geneseed and several organs but not much more.

i agree with some of your views but come on with some of this. keep making topics like this and youll run into trouble with more than other members... 8)
 
#3 ·
I'm generally quite happy enough when someone bothers to think out fluff for their army that I'm not going to criticize them. In particular, yeah, the fluff says no female space marines but the conversion can look good and hey, the galaxy is a big, mysterious place.

The one thing I would like people who make fluff to keep in mind is: 1) In the Warhammer 40K universe, there aren't too many good guys. and 2) Less is more. Leave some unexplained story hooks in your army profile so that they can be filled out later. Or abandoned if they aren't good ideas.
 
#4 ·
I wholeheartedly agree with you on every one of your points. It seems to me like everyone wants their army to be the better than the official fluff makes them and to me that is just not right. People try to make their army perfect but they have to realize that its unrealistic and that flaws give an army its character.

And like JOHIRA! said, leaving some things unexplained is always a good idea, its thought provoking and fits in with the style of official fluff.

@ darkreever, I think he means geneseed when he said zygote because I do remember reading that SM geneseed keys only to male hormones which are in turn produced by the male zygote. I can see how he could make such a slip.
 
#5 ·
Stop using the two founding legions who's names were stricken from the record as your chapter's progenitors. I know GW left them off the list for just that kind of situation (or in case they write themselves into a corner with their official fluff), but everyone and their mothers uses that. It's just as common as 1, 2, 3, and 5 on Addoran's list.

Loyal chapters created from the Traitor legions. There WERE no loyal chapters created from the Traitor legions, because when chapters were first made, the Traitors had already pissed on earth and fled. No "well, WE wanted to stay loyal to the Emperor despite the rest of the legion during traitor" - marines follow(ed) their own Primarchs as if they were gods. The next time I see a loyal chapter created from Emperor's Children, in particular, I think I might cry.
 
#6 ·
Originally posted by mEGALOMANIAC@Jan 5 2005, 06:48
Loyal chapters created from the Traitor legions. There WERE no loyal chapters created from the Traitor legions, because when chapters were first made, the Traitors had already pissed on earth and fled. No "well, WE wanted to stay loyal to the Emperor despite the rest of the legion during traitor" - marines follow(ed) their own Primarchs as if they were gods. The next time I see a loyal chapter created from Emperor's Children, in particular, I think I might cry.
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I agree with you on this one in essance, but just wanted to play Devils Advocate on the point....

If half the DA's can fall to chaos and turn against their Primarch, why cant 100 members of a different legion stay loyal and fight against their corrupted Chaos Primarch?
 
#7 ·
I am always a little leery when I see someone setting out cardinal rules of fluff - especially for a setting that is as intrinsically open as 40k is, although there is definitely a lot of merit in the arguments presented in this topic.

When I read Addoran's original post I found myself thinking that a lot of his comments were related to originality, rather than cardinal rules of fluff. After all, there are no new stories. Its all been told before. Anyone interested in how far this line of tought actually goes can read Joseph Campbell's "The Hero with a Thousand Faces".

I would however agree with Addoran's comments about changing established fact. If something has been stated explicitly in GW's background material (and you can reference that explicit statement), then we must consider it cannon. That does not, however, preclude using the blurred areas and holes to creative advantage.

Also, remember that the Imperium is over 10.000 years old, and in that time a great deal of knowledge has been lost, supressed or just plain ignored. No-one (with the possible exception of the Emperor Himself) knows everything that goes on throughout the galaxy.

In the final analysis, it comes down to the objective of the fluff in question: if someone has a great idea about what actually happened to Leman Russ and can write up a way for old wolfie to get involved in a non-game breaking way, then by all means! But, by the same logic, if some is using fluff to justify putting all of the most powerful units in one army then they have so missed the point. ("Chaos can corrupt anything - so I'm gonna play with Marneus Calgar, Abaddon, 15 Warp Spiders, Grey Knight Terminators with Daemonic Strength, Nurgle-Tau Battlesuits and 8 Dreadnaughts with twin linked Demolisher cannons" kind of thing)

If you want to win the game using rules, you have to obey the rules as written(and that includes which units appear where and how many of them you can field).
But if you want to write some entertaining fluff to justify a creative and interesting army, then I'm all for it.

This is, after all creative hobby, not a game of chess.
 
#8 ·
Originally posted by JOHIRA!@Jan 4 2005, 23:32
The one thing I would like people who make fluff to keep in mind is: 1) In the Warhammer 40K universe, there aren't too many good guys. and 2) Less is more. Leave some unexplained story hooks in your army profile so that they can be filled out later. Or abandoned if they aren't good ideas.
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this is a brilliant point in your post here that i wanted to reinforce.

i've been working on my own codex for a few weeks now, and inevitably at some point in your fluff writing, you're going to come up with something you're not 100% totally sure about and don't have access to enough resources to check that certain something.

this is a great way to get around that! just don't say! leave it as a mystery!

it may sound like a cop out, but if you're willing to massage it a bit, it can become a very useful, not to mention more interesting tool in your writer's arsenal.

obviously, if you over use this idea (or any other) it becomes tired and stupid, but used sparingly and wisely, it can create some real drama in your fluff, not to mention some larger reason for your chapter to be seeking something other than asses to kick.
 
#9 ·
1. Agree hate when people go and do that,I think godpeople who want to make their guys seem superior to other SMs(Nazi marines)

2. y opinion,most chapters say it:Ultras ang Imperial fists have good arguments so I disagree.

3. ree.

4. dont see the reason why not,in a WD it shows chaos Tau and that was by GW!

5. nt see the problem

6. Agree

7. Agree

8. Dont do it for well known chapters but for chapters with a twist I cant see why.

Theres my rant about that.

Another thing to add,GW change it ALL THE TIME!!!!!!!!!!!! :angry:
 
#10 ·
I would also like to add that your Force Commander is not the most reverred hero of the Imperium and cannot take down 500 Khornate Berzekers without so much as the paint flaking off his armour.

But seriously, if you're going to make fluff, think about the reality of the situation. Just because his stats are great in the game, it does not mean he is the ultimate killing machine. One good blow to the head from a Khornate Chainaxe and he would be down, which would inevitably happen.
 
#11 ·
Just a thought in terms of fluff from people, and from GW too... in most games you play against SM, you manage to kill at least 50% of their army. A lot of people like to kill of the enemy heroes first... eg: mind war! Now, a lot of SM heroes and force commanders in general are "veterens of 100 battles or more", plus it says that Marines can be expected to live for a couple of centuries before being killed. In the game, these invincible heroes are killed all the time. What is going on?

Also with Space Wolf squads, Blood claws die and eventually become Grey Hunters. The difference is about 5 men i reckon... and the older ones (Long Fangs) have men. How many squads have you left at 5 men? it's not as if a very large number of them ever live through a battle, so how are there so many longbeards of 1000 battles? I think this is a bit out of proportion.
 
#12 ·
Originally posted by Saruman_II@Jan 5 2005, 18:46
Just a thought in terms of fluff from people, and from GW too... in most games you play against SM, you manage to kill at least 50% of their army. A lot of people like to kill of the enemy heroes first... eg: mind war! Now, a lot of SM heroes and force commanders in general are "veterens of 100 battles or more", plus it says that Marines can be expected to live for a couple of centuries before being killed. In the game, these invincible heroes are killed all the time. What is going on?

Also with Space Wolf squads, Blood claws die and eventually become Grey Hunters. The difference is about 5 men i reckon... and the older ones (Long Fangs) have men. How many squads have you left at 5 men? it's not as if a very large number of them ever live through a battle, so how are there so many longbeards of 1000 battles? I think this is a bit out of proportion.
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marines are quite possibly the most underbalanced units fluff wise in the game, space marines can be out numbered 100 to 1 and still win. thats is why they have veterans of a hundred campaigns, in the game they understrengthed to make the game balanced in favour of other armuies, and in relation to another point not all the legions followed their primarchs there instances int eh fluff with both the word bearers and death guard who did NOT betray the emperor,
 
#13 ·
Originally posted by Saruman_II@Jan 5 2005, 12:46
Just a thought in terms of fluff from people, and from GW too... in most games you play against SM, you manage to kill at least 50% of their army. A lot of people like to kill of the enemy heroes first... eg: mind war! Now, a lot of SM heroes and force commanders in general are "veterens of 100 battles or more", plus it says that Marines can be expected to live for a couple of centuries before being killed. In the game, these invincible heroes are killed all the time. What is going on?

Also with Space Wolf squads, Blood claws die and eventually become Grey Hunters. The difference is about 5 men i reckon... and the older ones (Long Fangs) have men. How many squads have you left at 5 men? it's not as if a very large number of them ever live through a battle, so how are there so many longbeards of 1000 battles? I think this is a bit out of proportion.
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see, this is where i believe sportsmanship plays a large part.

is there inherently wrong with taking 3 squads of assault terminators in a high point game? probably not, but good lord, fluff wise, there are only a handful of chapters who could actually field that and have it be beliveable. not to mention that since the imperium allegedly lost the secrets to producing terminator armour and a lot of other cool stuff, you probably wouldn't see huge squads lying around decked out in it.

however, if you're trying to win a game, you're trying to win a game. you're going to take what works for you. i understand that side of the argument too.

me personally, i came up with the majority of my fluff before i had anything except a tactical squad. i also picked my custom chapter's traits and whatnot according to my fluff. i didn't just look in the book and go "oh, eye for and eye isn't that bad."

i almost think there ought to be fluff tourney games and regular win-at-all-cost-even-if-it-means-fielding-200-models-in-artificer-armour games.
 
#14 ·
well, since you're all fluffsters i got a question.

will the gaze of a navagator kill you?

cause in a few books people have died from looking at a navagators eye, but in the latest space wolf novel navagators were walking around a ship with there eye bared for all to see.

so do navigator eyes kill?
 
#15 ·
can do, if the navigator tries. it's like pyschic powers, they can kill at will.

though why they were walking around with eyes all to see, i wouldn't know. they don't usually do that. if they are in any way tempted to hurt someone then, they would really hurt them.

back on topic, it really is best if you give your chapter modest fluff, rather than the "we're the best" line all of the time.
 
#17 ·
yea, navigating through a sea of acid mebbe.........

it'd be funny as hell if all navigators acted like raul duke/jack sparrow.

ooo, see i thought it was death to look upon the eye of a navigator, thats why that ultra marine captan had to put on his helm just to ingrave the map to the black library on that navigators eye. in that chaos child book.
 
#19 ·
i may be jumping the gun here, but there was a fluff repository thread a while ago. i'm not sure whether it's fantasy only, but that would be the place to send these sort of queries.

he's mortally wounded, as it says. it's probaly better to think of it as brain-dead, because the machine he's hooked up to keeps him alive, but not truely alive (like a heart machine that keeps pumping blood around the body after the brain has shut off permantently). i think that's how it goes, anyway.
 
#20 ·
(they can kill, but not on the ship in the sw book. there was some special power at work that treated the navagators as normal people throughout most of the ship. this is just speculation, im not going to get out the book and look it up right now.)

large number of terminators would be fielded as support from the first company of the chapter in question. most fluff says that the chapters veteran first company has many marines in terminator armor. correct me if im wrong.

depending on what you field will decide what is supporting what, unless of course your entire army is dreads or termies... 8)

look in several older threads, and i mean really old, one of them talks about the emperor and says his soul is currently hiding in the warp. from the chaos gods of course. but im not saying that its true, just that it was said.
 
#21 ·
Originally posted by Saruman_II@Jan 5 2005, 18:46
Just a thought in terms of fluff from people, and from GW too... in most games you play against SM, you manage to kill at least 50% of their army.
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I suppose you could assume that this is a 'heroic' battle, and that the last 99 battles these space marines have fought have been against some heretic farmers with pointy sticks who wrote some naughty graffiti about the Emperor once. ;)
 
#22 ·
back on topic, it really is best if you give your chapter modest fluff, rather than the "we're the best" line all of the time.
I think one problem is that people get carried away with SM fluff. GW writes how SM are the most powerful and most loyal troops in the Imperium, and everyone want's their chapter to be the best. No one's going to say "My chapter is full of lazy slackers" ^_^ But also, to be fair, most chapters consider themselves to be the best, you know? If they thought that some other chapter was the best, their moral and whatnot would be zero.

large number of terminators would be fielded as support from the first company of the chapter in question. most fluff says that the chapters veteran first company has many marines in terminator armor. correct me if im wrong.
The first company is traditionally all Vets, yes, but most chapters don't have nearly enough terminator armor for them all, hence a lot of Vet squads/Vet sergeants, all with termie honors. They all know how to use termie armor, but there isn't enough to outfit everyone, imo. Unless you're a Dark Angel. Then you guys throw handfuls of termie armor into the air, and light cigarettes with termie armor, and wipe your bums with termie armor, and... ^_^
 
#23 ·
Hmm I'm back and this thread has indeed got busy.

I made this topic in frustration, after reading another forums fluff area and beating my head against the wall due to some of the work going on. Now get me right, Ive nothing against good, well written fluff, but reading the stories on said unnamed forum, there was basically 2 varieties.

1/ The "my army is secretly the greatest army ever, so there"

Sample : My chapter "insert chapter name", were in fact the first legion made, but somehow everyone forgot....blah blah blah. Created as the Emperor's super duper elite fighting force, they are the most loyal marines ever, more loyal than any other chapter....blah blah blah. They in fact managed to single handedly defeat 200000 Khorne bezerkers in single combat on "insert planet name". They personally answer the Emperor's call and carry out his exact will, although noone knows this.

2/ The "my chapter is made of a group of marines seperated from their chapter"

Sample : My chapter "insert chapter name" were made from standard geneseed when disaster fell.....blah blah blah. The surviving ship/ships crashed on a remote world and some marines survived....blah blah. After a long time, the Imperium rediscovered them, and made a new chapter from them, making the world their homeworld.

So in short, getting kinda sick of both, or god help it...a combination of the 2. Al though mEGALOMANIAC has a valid point. The whole seperated group of loyalist marines from a chaos chapter is also becoming tired.


On the terminator question, I dont see why taking a large amount of terminators is a bad thing. Sure the suits are rare, but even in a high point game, its going to be a relatively low amount of terminator suits to power armour suits. Even then, if you field a first founding chaper, its likely theres going to be plenty of suits, as all chapters have access to them in their armoury. Hell the Dark Angels can field an entire army of Termnators.

On the navigator question, the navigator only has to look upon someone with their uncovered third eye (situated on their forehead), and that person dies.
 
#24 ·
Why do you think Space Marines account for 50 percent of GWs total sales?

Because a scary number of people people like the idea of being amazing superheroic types who fight evil, which is one, rather simple way of looking at space marines. It's sad, but true.

Of course, when you start to consider the fact that we're talking about a social system which saccrifices billions of people just to feed the appetite of its half-dead psychic 'god.' Good and evil become a little more relative.

I don't tend to penalise people for what I consider to be bad fluff, though it's important to recognise and commend good fluff. If people want to play inane superheroes, let them. A lot of sterotypes are filled because people are ignorant of what has been done before.

For example, I'd not actually seen an example of the 'seperated from the Imperium' fluff outside of the official stuff on Legion of the Damned, so I was actually going to do something similar with the space marine renegade army I was planning on doing. Thanks for the warning, in any case, I'll avoid that plot hook like the plague.
 
#25 ·
1/Your chapter isn't the oldest in the imperium. They are'nt secretly the first founded chapter, the Dark Angels are, all the fluff says so. Don't rewrite the history for your convenience.
Sample : My chapter "insert chapter name", were in fact the first legion made, but somehow everyone forgot....blah blah blah. Created as the Emperor's super duper elite fighting force, they are the most loyal marines ever, more loyal than any other chapter....blah blah blah. They in fact managed to single handedly defeat 200000 Khorne bezerkers in single combat on "insert planet name". They personally answer the Emperor's call and carry out his exact will, although noone knows this.
Reading this I suddenly got the idea of an SM army based off the expirimental ones used when the emperor established control of Terra. I could take one more disadvantage than youre supposed to in order to reflect that theyre crudely enhanced and had primitive equipment, and not take any dreadnoughts etc. Does anyone know where I can get more info on these early times and perhaps some pictures of MK1 armor (though that could be too advanced for these guys 8) ), and would this count as still being annoyingly standard? Its not like anyone forgot about them, they just faded into history.
 
#26 ·
Originally posted by Baratos@Jan 5 2005, 23:03
Reading this I suddenly got the idea of an SM army based off the expirimental ones used when the emperor established control of Terra. I could take one more disadvantage than youre supposed to in order to reflect that theyre crudely enhanced and had primitive equipment, and not take any dreadnoughts etc. Does anyone know where I can get more info on these early times and perhaps some pictures of MK1 armor (though that could be too advanced for these guys 8) ), and would this count as still being annoyingly standard? Its not like anyone forgot about them, they just faded into history.
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Woah.. A space marine army wearing thunder armour.

Would be awesome, but you couldn't really fight anything without breaking 40k history. Thunder armour was only used on Terra to fight other human tribes, then they switched to crusade.

I was going to use all 'heresy' armour myself, because it looks really cool, has no Imperial markings and, having read the fluff on it, it seems quite appropriate to the chapter I'm trying to create.
 
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