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Ok, before we get started, i know that SOMEONE will come on and say "thousand sons can't recruit, they have all turned to dust." this is not true, the psykers of the legion kept their bodies. so if you respond with that, then you don't don't know your fluff, and didn't read the first posting. i pray the gaming gestopo busts into your dwelling, smashes your figures, and slaps you 9 times.
now that we got that out of the way.....
the fluff, and some of the novels, suggest that on occasion, the 9 traitor legions do recruit new members. i guess it is assumed that after battles, they recover what geneseed they can from fallen brethren. how exactly they go about recruiting new members i leave for another topic, but here are my questions i figured i would throw out there for you fine fluff scholers out there to debate.
1st one, if a prospective recruit was implanted with thousand son geneseed, and he wasn't a psyker, would he imidiately start to mutate like the rest of his legion, or would the sorcerous power of the previous owner have seeped into the very geneseed, and imidiately turn him into a psyker?
2nd, do you think that they only bother to recruit psykers now, as they must be very picky with the little geneseed they have left?
3rd, do you think that if a regular thousand son is destroyed (ie, reduced to 0 wounds) do you think that if the armor is repaired, that the spirit can once again take over. this being the case, that would mean that the spirit is not truely encased inside the shell of the armor, rather, that it posseses the armor itself.
4th, if the above is not the case, and the spirit is released, do you think that it disipates, or that maybe the sorceror in charge of the squad might have a, for lack of a better term, a spirit stone like the eldar, to trap the souls of his once living brethren, so that they may later be restored to a suit of armor?
my own personal opinion is that
1 and 2: they simply save the geneseed for psykers they recruit
3 and 4: the spirit is housed inside, but as long as their is a decent amount of armor left (ie, it doesn't get atomized by a las cannon or something similar) than as long as the armor is repaired, it can continue to function. souls released by massive destruction of their armor will be bound by the squad leader, as long as he is still alive, and restored later to a new set of armor, with the proper rituals and wards of course.
have fun ladies and gentlemen
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Vegitarianism is willingly demoting yourself on the food chain.</span>
I'm pretty sure Thousand Sons geneseed is unusable. Most Chaos Legions have a problem with thier geneseed being so corrupt it simply doesn't work when they try to make new marines with it. That's why they have to either stele Geneseed from loyal chapters or pay Fabius and ungodly amount of money to get ahold of his material.1st one, if a prospective recruit was implanted with thousand son geneseed, and he wasn't a psyker, would he imidiately start to mutate like the rest of his legion, or would the sorcerous power of the previous owner have seeped into the very geneseed, and imidiately turn him into a psyker?Given the sorceror nature of Thousand Sons, I'd say they probably only recruit psykers.2nd, do you think that they only bother to recruit psykers now, as they must be very picky with the little geneseed they have left?3rd, do you think that if a regular thousand son is destroyed (ie, reduced to 0 wounds) do you think that if the armor is repaired, that the spirit can once again take over. this being the case, that would mean that the spirit is not truely encased inside the shell of the armor, rather, that it posseses the armor itself.
I think the spirit is pretty much bonded to the armour (sorta like Full Metal Alchemist if you've ever seen that) so I imagine the spirit remains anchored to the armour itself unless it's completely destroyed.
1/ Your forgetting that your basic Thousand Son marine has no psychic powers. The basic troops are not psychic, they are more like automata trapped into their armour. Only the lords, which gain their psychic powers and such from the daeomic gifts from Tzeench have access to spells.
2/ See one. I'm guessing the psychic recruits 'go to the top', while the non-psychic would become your bog standard 'Johnus Smithus, Tactical Marine of the 4th Company".
3/ Unless the armour is completely obliterated, the daemonic posession/contagion will remain yes. The way I imagine it would work would be something like the Eldar Exarch armours. The armour still contains the original spirit of the original chaos marine. Although when he is dead new recruits may take his place, he has an affect on the new recruits, his 'spirit' is still present and warps them.
4/ Probably not, only the Eldar have that sort of soul trapping ability, with their special Warp Stone and such. The kind of power your talking about is probably beyond any Imperial or Chaos faction.
I thought originally that the Thousand Sons recruited those that had some psychic ability, though not all were able to properly channel it. That was my understanding, I could be wrong.
1)I do believe that they can't recruit anymore, due to the lack of real geneseed, it has been mutated even in the legions that haven't become dust/disease riddled/etc..
2)And they would probably only take psykers and use Fabiu Biles techniques or the stolen seed of loyal chapters.
3+4)I don't know if that can really be answered. In my opinion it should work as long as the armor isn't vaporized.
"They are my space marines and they shall know no fear, for they are fear incarnate." ~ Konrad Curze (Night Haunter), Primarch of the Night Lords Legion
"Adeo mori servus Imperator Fictus
Ave Dominus Nox" (So die the slaves of the False Emperor. Hail to the Lord of the Night.) ~ Talonmaster Zso Sahaal [Lord of the Night, p.68]
It is my belief that the gene-seed of the Thousand Sons has mutated and degenerated to such a degree that it can no longer be used to create new Legionnaires, but I am willing to pretend for a moment that this might not be the case for the sake of having a meaningful discussion.I think it would be logical to assume that the Thousand Sons Legion only recruits psychically gifted individuals, considering the importance of sorcery to their Legion. However, since the Thousand Sons Legion has always had an unusually high number of psykers compared to other Legions, I believe it might be possible that even ungifted recruits can â€˜inheritâ€™ psychic powers from their Primarch; since most humans are latently psychic, receiving the gene-seed of one of the strongest psykers in the galaxy would likely activate these dormant psychic powers and turn the recruits into psykers. So it is my belief that a Thousand Son initiate would indeed have psychic powers of some sort, regardless of whether he was a psyker before the initiation.Originally posted by Baradiel+Mar 23 2005, 17:16--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Baradiel @ Mar 23 2005, 17:16)</div><div class='quotemain'>1st one, if a prospective recruit was implanted with thousand son geneseed, and he wasn't a psyker, would he imidiately start to mutate like the rest of his legion, or would the sorcerous power of the previous owner have seeped into the very geneseed, and imidiately turn him into a psyker?[snapback]359494[/snapback][/b]
As for the mutations, it is my belief that all Thousand Son legionnaires in possession of a physical body is also plagued (or gifted, depending on your point of view) with mutations. After the Rubric of Ahriman, all non-psychic Thousand Sons have been transformed to automata, while most of the sorcerers have kept their physical forms and mutations. I believe that a Thousand Son initiate pledging himself to the service of Tzeentch would also in time be gifted with mutations, regardless of whether he possesses psychic powers or not. In case he is ungifted, he would not become an automaton like his brethren, since Primach Magnus himself stepped in and put an end to the Rubric of Ahriman, but would suffer from the same mutations that Ahriman tried to save his Legion from by casting the Rubric.
However, in some of the fluff it is indicated that not all Thousand Son Legionnaires that were struck by the Rubric became mindless automatons; some have still their mind and powers, and continue to use both in combat against the loyalist forces.I think it depends on the potential recruit in question: if he is ungifted, but exceptionally skilled in some other aspect, I believe he would be accepted for initiation regardless of his lack of psychic powers. Also, it might be that receiving the gene-seed would turn him into a psyker, as suggested above. The only person I can imagine would be rejected out of hand by the Thousand Sons is someone who is a psychic blank.Originally posted by Baradiel@Mar 23 2005, 17:16
2nd, do you think that they only bother to recruit psykers now, as they must be very picky with the little geneseed they have left?[snapback]359494[/snapback]
<!--QuoteBegin-Baradiel@Mar 23 2005, 17:16
3rd, do you think that if a regular thousand son is destroyed (ie, reduced to 0 wounds) do you think that if the armor is repaired, that the spirit can once again take over.Â* this being the case, that would mean that the spirit is not truely encased inside the shell of the armor, rather, that it posseses the armor itself.
4th, if the above is not the case, and the spirit is released, do you think that it disipates, or that maybe the sorceror in charge of the squad might have a, for lack of a better term, a spirit stone like the eldar, to trap the souls of his once living brethren, so that they may later be restored to a suit of armor?[snapback]359494[/snapback][/quote]I believe that the soul of a Thousand Son will remain inside his armour as long as there is a decent piece of armour for it to remain inside. If the armour is damaged, it could be repaired with no harm done to the spirit inside of it. This would indicate that the spirit had indeed taken possession of the armour, making it an anchor in the physical world that allows the Thousand Son to interact with his surroundings (and destroy them) rather than a prison keeping the spirit trapped away from the Warp where it belongs. However, if the armour is destroyed completely and irrevocably, I believe the spirit will escape the armour and go to the Sea of Souls like the spirits of other dead people. I donâ€™t believe it is possible to contain such souls and reinstate them inside a new armour, if only because Tzeentch would not approve of being denied the souls that are rightfully his longer than absolutely necessary.
"Girls are nice and cuddly on the outside, and freaky on the inside." ~ Lost Nemesis.
I like the theory on them catching the spirit in something. they might take it back to there daemon world and put it into a new suit of armour.
Note the point in the Chaos Codex when it states that rubric marines are unique to the thousand sons legion. I'd take that as good evidence that new rubric marines can't be created, otherwise, wouldn't other legions have done it?
I'd pretty much agree with others as regards new thousand sons psychic recruits. Either the gene seed is distorted beyond belief, or it's so rare that only the most exceptional (and given the tastes of the legion, this means psychic) individuals could hope to be recruited. This is not the case with sorcerors from other legions/rogue chapters, who are quite capable of worshipping Tzeentch and recieving the mark without being a member of the thousand sons legion.
As for the marines dying. I'm guessing its significantly harder to actually permantently destroy a rubric marine than it is to put one out of action. Unless the armour is completely annihilated it seems likely it could simply be repaired. The soul is bound within the dust and armour, so it's not like it can escape permanently. This explains why the thousand sons wouldn't need to recruit.. actually destroying one is such a prodigous feat that the legion probably doesn't loose many ghost-troops at all.
But I'm just speculating here, I suspect. There's no definitive fluff on the matter I'm aware of.
you know, thinking about it, i just think it would be some neet fluff, having a sorceror, who has in his wand or necklace or what ever, intoning a ritual on new power armor, perhaps captured from loyalist marines, and ritually desecrated.
yeah, tzeentch, like the other 3 gods, likes his tasty soul snacks, but of all of them, tzeentch is the most pragmatic. i think he, of all of gods, would forgo his space marine soul buffet as long as it would serve his plans. chaos space marines are the best troops chaos has available, and i don't see tzeentch wasting such a precious resource, being that he most likely has the least amount available.
but interesting answers one and all, keep them comming.
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Vegitarianism is willingly demoting yourself on the food chain.</span>
Yes Edicius i have watched the full metal alchemist series, and u know how Al has a seal that can be broken on his armor, releasing his soul, do u think the thousand sons troops have a seal too? if so, i would think the soul might go on to corrupt the most vulnerable marine in the opposing company, slowly degrading his mind and soul into one of the Tzeentch, and when he is ready, the psykers of Tzeentch scope him out and take him in. Although there is a very high chance of that previous statement being incorrect, therefore, if im wrong, i think the soul would just mingle inside the broken armor, waiting for another young recruit to posses.
Not too sure about that one.
To clarify the basics. The thousand sons were the victims of a spell called the 'Rubric of the Ahriman' which was intended to stop the massive mutation which was spreading through the legion. However, it turned all the non psychic legionairres into dust, and trapped their souls inside their armour. The fluff is very hazy on what this is like, but it's my conclusion that most, if not all rubric marines have virutally no free will, are are basically just animated suits of armour.
Creating new Rubric Marines would mean recreating the Rubric of Ahriman. But since the only person who knew how to perform the Rubric (Ahriman.. duh) was exiled from the (spectacularly originally named) 'planet of the sorcerors' it seems unlikely anyone else would know anything but the basics of how it was done.
I do kind of see the idea of them bonding new souls into the old armour, kind of like a dreadnought chassis, but I can't endorse it, because I have seen no fluff evidence.