to Traitor...or not to Traitor? - Warhammer 40K Fantasy

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  1. #1
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    to Traitor...or not to Traitor?

    I was wondering: Do Traiotr Marines ever renounce Chaos and return to normal life, in the Emperium or not?


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    Senior Member Sithlet's Avatar
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    The only way I could see this happening would be if the marines were truly penetant and were willing to die to atone for their transgressions.

    The Imperium is not a forgiving institution -- being excommunicatus, traitor marines would pretty much be killed if they ever returned to the Imperium.
    Sithlet

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    Well, I suppose it depends on what you mean with normal life, but yes, there are examples in the fluff of Traitors forswearing Chaos and becoming rogues instead, even Chaos champions escaping the will of their divine masters. They can never return to the Imperium, though, because while heresy can be forgiven as the result of ignorance, treason will forever make you hated in the eyes of the Imperium. The Soul Drinkers’ Chapter is a good example of this fact. If you haven’t read the Black Library novel ‘Soul Drinker’ by Ben Counter, though, I won’t spoil it for you. There is also mention in the Black Library novel ‘Daemon World’, also by Ben Counter, of a Chaos champion, though not a Space Marine, who fought his way free of Chaotic influences and became a rogue instead, forever fighting to avenge himself on the Chaos gods that twisted his mind and soul for so long. Finally, there is an excellent example in the short story ‘Daemonblood’ (found in the anthology ‘Dark Imperium’), also by Ben Counter (hmm, do I sense a theme here? ), though I am also not going to spoil that one in case there are people reading this post who have yet to acquire the books for themselves.

    Since I can’t seem to locate a ‘hide spoiler’ function at this board, I have tried to keep the details to a minimum. If you want more detailed information on the specific fluff and don’t mind a few spoilers, feel free to PM me. This also goes for anyone else interested.

    ~Grephaun.
    Last edited by Grephaun; April 1st, 2005 at 01:20.
    "Girls are nice and cuddly on the outside, and freaky on the inside." ~ Lost Nemesis.


  5. #4
    Son of LO ze_poodle's Avatar
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    I believe some forty members of the Death Guard were not present when the Destroyer Hive infected the Terminatus Est After they saw what happened to their former brothers, twisted by Nurgle's Gift, they decided to go on a personal vengeance mission to earn repentence for the sins of their comrades. It's rumoured that they will appear on a battlefield in the original Crusade-pattern Death Guard Legion power armour and completely own the Plague Marines since Death Guard were originally immune to all diseases, except for the Destroyer Hive.

    Other than that, it's not common that a CSM will truly want to turn back. The lure is too great, and many of them have been controlled by Chaos for ten thousand years. It's nigh on impossible for them to break the grip that the Gods have on their souls. Though it would make an awesome fanfiction. Consider the Thousands Sons - they were forced into serving Tzeentch, and despise mutation in all its forms. Ahriman isn't evil as per say, he merely wants the knowledge of the universe and is prepared to do anything to get it. That's why Ahriman rocks and so do the Thousand Sons.

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    435 (x6)

    Quote Originally Posted by ze_poodle
    I believe some forty members of the Death Guard were not present when the Destroyer Hive infected the Terminatus Est After they saw what happened to their former brothers, twisted by Nurgle's Gift, they decided to go on a personal vengeance mission to earn repentence for the sins of their comrades. It's rumoured that they will appear on a battlefield in the original Crusade-pattern Death Guard Legion power armour and completely own the Plague Marines since Death Guard were originally immune to all diseases, except for the Destroyer Hive.
    I believe you might be thinking about the legend of the Eisenstein? Seventy Marines from different Chapters realised what was about to happen on Istvaan III and decided to warn the Emperor of Horus’ betrayal. They stole five spaceships, one of them the Eisenstein, and escaped to Terra to bring news of Horus’ pact with the dark gods. No one knows what happened to the loyal Marines whose Legions had turned traitor, though. Some say that they were imprisoned in the dungeons beneath the Imperial palace until the Emperor could decide their fate, and since He never did, remained imprisoned until their deaths. Others say that Garro, the Death Guard commander that led the rebellion against the Traitor Legions, spent all his life in one of the Emperor’s great laboratories on Terra trying to find a cure for the plagues of Nurgle that had infected his Legion. Some say that Garro in the end suffered the fate of his Legion and became a Champion of Nurgle himself, while others claim that the Marines from the Eisenstein are still alive and fighting their Traitor brethren. It’s impossible to know the truth, though, so that is up to one’s own imagination.

    ~Grephaun.
    "Girls are nice and cuddly on the outside, and freaky on the inside." ~ Lost Nemesis.


  7. #6
    Son of LO ze_poodle's Avatar
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    415 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grephaun
    I believe you might be thinking about the legend of the Eisenstein? Seventy Marines from different Chapters realised what was about to happen on Istvaan III and decided to warn the Emperor of Horus’ betrayal. They stole five spaceships, one of them the Eisenstein, and escaped to Terra to bring news of Horus’ pact with the dark gods. No one knows what happened to the loyal Marines whose Legions had turned traitor, though. Some say that they were imprisoned in the dungeons beneath the Imperial palace until the Emperor could decide their fate, and since He never did, remained imprisoned until their deaths. Others say that Garro, the Death Guard commander that led the rebellion against the Traitor Legions, spent all his life in one of the Emperor’s great laboratories on Terra trying to find a cure for the plagues of Nurgle that had infected his Legion. Some say that Garro in the end suffered the fate of his Legion and became a Champion of Nurgle himself, while others claim that the Marines from the Eisenstein are still alive and fighting their Traitor brethren. It’s impossible to know the truth, though, so that is up to one’s own imagination.

    ~Grephaun.
    Yep, that's the one. Good ol' Index Astartes. Couldn't recall all the details off the top of my head.

    It's a good basis for a fanfiction, no?

  8. #7
    Son of LO The_Giant_Mantis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ze_poodle
    It's a good basis for a fanfiction, no?
    I'd say not, as a general rule.

    Too many people try and do it. It's just got silly.

    And the fact that it happened once is not a precedent for it happening again.

    But fluff is quite flexible. If you explain it well, then I might well be persuaded, just don't use the original traitor legions. There are so many 'chapters' made from their gene seed it's obscene. Such a thing just wouldn't happen.

    Remember that some of the chapters in the Badab uprising, like the Lamenters, Mantis Legion and Executioners fought for the Astral Claws/Red Corsairs (who later defected to Chaos), then repented when they realised they were making a horrible mistake. In each case, there was a bit of purging involved, and a penitent crusade, but they're still active.

    I think the answer is: if their reason for becoming renegades is doctrinal, it's possible, though there would be some cleansing required. If they actually crossed the line and betray the Emperor's plan by aligning themselves with the powers of chaos, then the situation is pretty hopeless. As the quote says (I think) 'A traitor will never find forgiveness in this world or the next. There is nothing more wretched than a traitor.'

    And as stated, I think, I sincerely doubt any chaos marines would want to return to the Imperium, even if such a thing were possible. They've signed away free will to their masters, who then twist their marine servants to match their own designs. Your average Emperor's Child, for example, can probably imagine nothing more horrifying than going back to their previous existence of 'normal' sensation, and your average Khorne berserker is probably utterly addicted to rage imbued by his master.
    Last edited by The_Giant_Mantis; April 1st, 2005 at 13:18.

  9. #8
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    about the tousand sons...i kind of got the picture (although im hardly an expert on the Sons, so forgive me if im mistaken) that they dont in fact want to be Chaos Marines, if that makes sense. Ive seen it written that they dont want to become mutated, or possessed, and dont worship Tzeentk at all, just use his subject power...if thats possible. They even went so far as to cast some spell to provent total subjucation to the work, which got Magnus pretty pissed off.
    Perhaps, if given the chance, a Son would abandon Chaos?

    and i understand about them never returning to the emperium. A traitor is a Traitor forever and can never be forgiven.

  10. #9
    Supreme Evil Overlord Dreachon's Avatar
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    Actually the TS do worship Tzeentch as he embodies knowledge, something that the TS also seek for.
    The spell was not designed to prevent the total subjugation of the work but to prevent the massed outbreak of psychical mutations.

  11. #10
    Son of LO The_Giant_Mantis's Avatar
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    Indeed..

    The implication in some fluff sources (but by no means all, as people are probably going to jump on me for this) is also that most thousand sons have no real autonomy or sense of self. They're just walking bulletshields for their sorcerous masters (it seems to imply that that's all they ever were, really.. the rubric just made them better at it.)

    It strikes me, also, that the thousand sons are the most highly controlled of the all chaos legions. Tzeentch uses his mortal pawns like pieces on a giant chessboard, setting in motion tiny events which lead to the outcome he wants. Even thousand sons who think they're free from Tzeentch, like Ahriman, are probably just acting out a role in this giant game. They serve Tzeentch, even if they they actively try not to.

    The moral.. never make a pact with a being infinately more intelligent than you.

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