SM equivalent to 60 yr. old humans
 

Hello all. I have been thinking of creating a chapter based upon ancient Sparta. Now part of their gov't system was a council of elder nobles who retired from fighting at 60. Obviously marines keep fighting for long long time so I just need to determine what an equivolent age for a space marine could be to correspond with these elder nobles of the Spartan Gerousia (the name for the elder council). I will still have the marines fighting on as veterans. I was thinking maybe 400? Too high or too low?

well for an idea like that, look at the age of your average chapter master/ grandmaster/ marine hero.

logan grimnar, dante, mephiston, azreal, marneus, lysander, shrike, kantor, tiguras are all opver 500 years old (correct me if im wrong) with logan and dante aging over 750 years old and still fighting.

Problem there InvictusVis is that I highly doubt that Marines actually retire at all. I've read storied where 1 old marine was too old but he still served the chapter as an Apothecary on there Fortress Monastary. And look at Dante hes ment to be 800 years old and hes still leading the Blood Angels from the forefront.

Not to mention that Space Marines face the deadliest fire fights in the universe, there lifespans would be short unless they where gifted warriors.

Also if a Marine was that old and died he would be entombed in a drednought sarchopigai for his experience.

Just my thought's.

-Invic

I refer you to the sentence in my original post that says "I will still have the marines fighting on as veterans". Of course I know they don't retire. I just wanted opinions on what is considered "old". But based on darkreever's post I'm gonna say that 600 is a good age for "wise elders", no?

Instead of age being the factor to class them as "wise elders", why not use the number of battles they have fought in, and survived.

Wisdom does not necessarily come with age, more with experience, and what would be better than a battle gnarled veteran to pass on knowledge of the fighting arts to the rest of the chapter.

And then you could have an elites within the elite, a tier system for surviving x amount of battles, and an elevation of rank for passing the next number of survived battles.

Just a thought.

this really is a good idea, but it has a single major flaw in it. space marines, for all thier superhumany goodness are still humans and as such they dont always learn from their battles. anyway, to live past the age of 300 means you see many battles so you'd be accomplishing both idea's.

the main difference between the two idea's is that you can fight many battles for a short period of time, while knowledge needs time in order to become effective. your idea of the tier system bears a close resemblance to the structure of the inner circle of the dark angels. (which is where its probably from... :cool: )

You both make good points but I am basing this off of the actual system Sparta used, where age determined virtue in their culture. So I am going to stick with this. Besides, the longer an SM lives the more battles he has fought in undoubtably, so they will always be more experienced than younger marines. The tier system sounds ok but like I said, I'm using already existing guidelines so my hands are tied. Just so you have a better Idea this is how the Spartan Gov't operated.

1. Gerousia
a. 2 Kings (keep each other in check)
b. 28 virtuous elders
c. They would propose legislature and carry out administrative work

2. Eccelsia
a. The entire assembly of fully fledged warriors (in this they will be battle brothers) that would vote yes or no on proposals by the gerousia

3.Ephors
a. 5 regular soldiers annually elected to serve as watchers of the kings, administraters of the law, and advisors on military matters. They had the power to veto the Ecclesia's vote.

1st, Dante is at least 1100 years old according to the 3rd edition BA codex. And he's still going strong........ With a forehead made of steel with all those long service studs (YIKES)

2nd, I don't think the Spartan model would work too well in the confines of the 40K universe. The battle brothers for the most part are bre trained extensively to follow orders from up the chain of command. I don't think them being able to vote yes or no against the commanders would work. As a system of government, sure sounds good, but as a military system, you're asking for trouble. One person gives the orders, two is pushing it, though they could refine and determine a better course of action together.

Of course, this is just my opinion and views, so whatever. Does sound like a nice idea, I just don't think it would work for story-type fluff.

I think there's a danger here in trying to figure out a age at which a space marine would be "older & wiser". There are of course the chapters such as the space wolves and blood angels who seem to boast really old, yet powerful warriors (i.e. Dante, Logan, Ulrik the Slayer) all of whom are at least 750 years old as far as we can tell. The 3rd edition blood angels codex said blantantly that Dante was 1100 years old, and the Space Wolves codex tells us that Logan has led the Wolves for 800 years (so assume some time as a lower battle brother and then regular wolf lord before becoming Great Wolf), and that Ulrik was the one that mentored him in the ways of the Space Wolves. However aside from those examples, most of the older space marines mentioned at least in the books were around 400 at most. I know Calgar is supposed to be like 350, and I think i remember reading that original Soul Drinkers grand master (before Sarpedon) was something like 320. I would think, depending on what chapter you're going to claim lineage from, that a space marines around 300 years old or so would be more than sufficient

As far as the chapter organization, the 2 kings could be sorta like 2 grand masters each of whom leads a part of the chapter military strength. The overwatching councils could perhaps be composed of the senior chaplains and librarians?

First of all, the structure of the Grey Knights prove that having several leaders (Grand Masters) can work extremely well.

Secondly, the Spartans were also raised to be unquestioningly obedient to the city state and to the chain of command while they were at the same time given a say in certain matters. And its not like they could disobey orders, they simply just voted on legislature and plans of action, some of the time the vote was overturned by the Gerousia anyway. But once a final decision was set down they followed it unquestioningly. The spartans pulled it off while being the leading power in greece for centuries politically and militarily so im sure Space marines could handle it.

Thirdly, all Space Marines are renowned for their sense of dedication and loyalty, so of course they would never question orders no matter what the structure of their force. Otherwise they would be considered heretics.

In response to Lord_wallace, I was thinking of making them successors of the Imperial Fists, just because the Ultramarines have too many already and I want a stable gene seed. So since that is the case perhaps I will make it 400 years old. The way I plan organization is this:

Upon implantation a marine of the chapter enters the Crypteia (scouts). When they recieve the gene seed and become full battle brother they enter the ranks of the general assembly of warriors known as the Eccelsia. When a battle brother proves his worth and is considered fit for command he may then be promoted to the rank of Noble (sergeant). Those noble's that reach the age of 400 become eligable for election by the Ecclesia to one of the 28 life long slots in the Gerousia along with the 2 Battle Kings. The members of the Gerousia will be equivolent to vet sergeants. Also elected by vote of the Ecclesia are the Ephors (Chaplains). These 5 positions are filled with ordinary battlebrothers who display exemplary bravery, faith, and obedience, and the position is held for only one year. From the ranks of Noble's are also chosen 2 Battle Kings (Chapter Masters/ Force Commanders). The method by which they are selected is by consulting the chapter Oracle's (Librarian's) on which two warriors would lead the chapter to the most victories. Apothecaries and Techmarines are chosen as normal and remain a part of the Ecclesia.

The Gerousia presents matters to the Ecclesia and proposes plans of action. Also, the 28 elders serve as advisors to the 2 Battle Kings. The Ecclesia, when summoned by the Gerousia or Ephors, had one responsibility alone: to vote "yes" or "no" on the matters and plans presented to them, and even then the Gerousia can veto their vote if they felt it is in the best interest of the chapter (this rarely happens). The 2 Battle Kings serve on the Gerousia and are the top military leaders. The job of the Ephors is to supervise the training of the chapters battle brothers and, as representatives of the general assembly, have a strong influence upon the Kings' plans and decisions. Also when a Battle King leads a fighting force 2 Ephors accompany him to ensure he presents himself in a manner befitting the chapter. If the Kings performance is found to be incompetent, the Ephors have the power to remove him from office and punish him accordingly.

This system of leadership guarantees that while the Ecclesia may not always get their way their opinions are always heard and given fair consideration by the command section, and this instills in them a tremendous sense of loyalty to their commanding officers.

Now go ahead and try to convince me this couldn't work. Because I sure as hades think it would, and to reiterate an earlier point, it has indeed worked quite well for the Spartans.

again i would like to point out that this is similar to the structure of the dark angels inner circle. the main difference is that the whole chapter is part of the lower most order.

after all, the dark angels have a chapter master, and brothers that advise him from time to time, then the chaplains and librarians, then the inner elite, then the elite, then the deathwing, then the raven gaurd, then the normal battle brothers.

for the idea your using it would look like this: chapter master, advisors/head chaplains/ chief librarians, all elites/ deathwing/raven gaurd (enforcers that would be elected), and finaly the rest of the brothers,

I have just edited my post after you had already posted this. I illustrated fully the organization I intend to use. I really don't think it is too much like the Dark Angels but if it seems that way to you then its a coincidence. Im sticking with it because its an almost exact model of the Ancient Spartan System.

tis all good and true, im just pointing out something a little interesting. its definately a coincidence that the two ideas bear a good resemblance to each other. i myself use something similar to the spartan ruling system.

Now all I must do is think of a good name for the chapter....

A minor sticking point in an otherwise very impressive and very well thought out army history. Given the unstable situation when it comes to travel through the Warp, where units can appear at planets decades or even centuries too late, perhaps a bit of a rethink might be in order here?
I'm not sure what to suggest, being a heretical ork player myself ( :lol: ) but perhaps raise this up to a decade, or perhaps at least a few more years? Or have them specifically set aside exceptions as to what would happen should they disappear and go on walkabout for a while?
Other then that minor critique, this is a very impressive and ambitious bit of fluff. Kudos man.
PS - Any thoughts on how you might model them to set them apart? I'm imagining some very interesting dreadnought conversions.

200 is considered old for a marine, in the early days anyway. Since recently because of genetic mutation some marines chapters live long lives, blood angels and space wolves being the most outstanding. You can owe the generalization to these chapters, marines in these chapters live exceptionally, for others its not that common. I think youre trying to put an emphasis on the greatness of your nobles and its perfect since exceptional marines from any chapter live longer than usual so there ya go.

ok. If you want wise eldars, have Venerable dreadnoughts. Great piece of fluff about this I read was in the book Iron Hands. In the beginning it talked at one point that all commanders from all the companies (or they called clans) came together and formed a council to discuss about the 13th Black Crusade and what to do. 3 certain peopel were there and were essentially in charge. They were dreadnoughts, and if I recall, all qwere Venerable. all the other leaders listened and obey them because the Venerable dreadnoughts had more experienceing in combat than any other of the commanders in the council.

So if you want "wise eldars", than the best choice is venerable dreadnoughts since they can live even longer than flesh marines like Dante. Example, look at the space wolf dude Venerable dreadnought. He was around the time when the Emperor walked with other marines into battle. Though, now he sleeps constantly and is only wokn up for stories of the past he lived.

There's also the Blood Angels Dreadnought who was over three thousand years old and still on active duty till his death.

For more data read Dawn of War