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Hey I was reading the new Aussie WD (306) and came across this quote:
"Tyranids are the ultimate bad guys...the exact opposite of the noble Space Marines..."
My first thought was, since when are SM "noble?" Since when is anything in 40k (especially the Imperium) "noble?" Then I realized, they ARE noble. SM are slowly changing from being portrayed as gothic brainwashed monsters into heroic champions who defend humanity against the darkness, the quintissential "good guys." Even the new models are cleaner, more romanesque and heroic with less of the dark feel marines used to have.
It used to be that SM were one brutal army among many others, but it seems to me that GW is for some reason updating the image of the marines into selfless heroes. Whether it's for accessablity reasons or a perceived need to lighten it up for younger players, I feel that one of the things that attracted me to 40k (ironically as a young player) is being done away with; The idea that there are no good guys in 40k, there is only war and none of it is ever just or noble, only brutal and pointless.
All the published material is like this now. Space Marines are routinely referred to as "heroes" and "champions" with not a trace of the irony that would have accompanied this in past years.
Anyone else notice this? Games like 40k evolve and change I know, but I think it will be a sad day when 40k has "good guys" and "bad guys." Alot of the dark ambience and maturity that was once the hallmark of 40k will be gone forever.
Kudos for starting this topic mate!
I can understand you there Robotnik. The Imperium is becoming more and more "good". I used to like it when it was a facist (sorta) regime and the reaon you played them, and not Chaos was becuase you were choosing "The Lesser of two evils.".
The Reason people play thier army seems to fundamentally boils down to this, it seems. I Play Witch-Hunters cause I love the fluff, and the Sisters of Battle are so pure and good (althougth this is sentimental and mushy) they represent everything good humanity has the power to be. No genetically modified killers, no huge tanks. Just faith in Humanity, and the good of people. Imperial Guard is sorta like that too. I think the SoB and the Imperial Gaurd a way, way more the Champions of humanity. They give thier life, to save those who they love "With only a lasgun and a courage to call his own." This represents the pinnaicl of Humanity, not some Genetic monsters.
So, yes the SM's are getting "nicer" but, I think thise only highligths the other (dare I say, better) Champions of Humanity: The Men and Women of the Imperial Gaurd, and the Sisters of the Adpeta Sorotias.
In the fluff, people don't adore spacemarines. They look up to them with fear and respect because they know what they are capable of. Spacemarines would never be greeted as heros, they're not human enough for that.
Spacemarines are the imperium in a nutshell, powerfull, feared and respected. Not loved, and made heroes. The cool thing about spacemarines is that they are so...well cool they don't fear the enemy, takes cover or gets spooked by chaos. They are silent killer machines spreying down every foe they come across, without hesitation or doubt.
But that can also make them boring in the same way necrons might be boring (that's Lx990412 over there, hey mate!) not very personal, that's why I prefer the guard they aren't killing machines but they can still take on and win over a much stronger, faster and deadlier foe. just a bayonet and some guts behind it
Well i know that a lot of the fluff is written from the Imperial point of view as such Space marines are regarded as "noble and heroic" from that stand point but then again that's just all down to perspective. I remember Graham McNeil talking about this at and Edinburgh Conflict when a kid commented on the Ultramarines being nice guys, He said that Since all Space marines where 8 foot tall killing machines trained and made for one purpose that you can't class them as being nice guys certainly they behave slightly more noble than some chapters but that dosen't make them good.
One of the things that i have noticed is that they have recently been trying to make the Tau a lot darker which i don't like the Rule book dosen't paint them in a very good light even although they are probably they only race in 40K that could even be considred good.
Yossarian i am going to have to disagree Sisters and gaurd are still human and although they sacrifce thier lives to save humanity they can still have a life outside of War where as a Space Marine must sacrifice everything that made him human to protect other humans so who could you regard as the most heroic. They have made a sacrifice that few gaurdsman would be willing to make.
It seems to me that the fluff (as opposed to the advertising) is as dark as ever. I just got a hold of a copy of the new Marine 'Dex to look over, last night, I'll tell you if my opinion changes.
For some reason i can quote so lets try this....
Firstly, sisters of battle may seem to be good (guys?) but at the end of the day they are an army of bombastic religious nutters with little compassion and love only for the Emperor and his church. By any means shall they force their docturin apon the faithless and burn all thouse who do not agree. The Ecclesiarchy is one mighty organisation of oppression keyed towards cowing down the men and women of the imperium as well as batteling its enemys.
It is true that most imperial citizens fear marines but that is mostly due to their belif in marines being devine worriors of the Emperor......they react in much the same way as a Cristian might if they where to see an Angel walking around......the love is for his master, not for his messangers. The darkness of marines is a matter of perspective. They, and most of the imperium, see them as good guys, fighting the wars in the emperors name. As an extention of this their appearance and ritualistic actions exibit many features that humans would percive to be signs of greatness, goodness and honour.....and as we are people too then we see these signs and attribute them to marines as good guys. They belive in their goodness and they display it for all to see. An outside eye would comment, however, that marines are little more than a course tool with witch the impirium can smash its enemys with little concern for honour or glory.
Tau are the closest to a true 'good' race 40k has but their fluff divulges an inner darkness to their intentions. They are attempting to unify the galaxy under one banner of peace but thouse who do not wish to join are crushed or oppressed. Much like the ancient Romans they take over what they can and destroy what they cant. Even the kroot, their closesed ally, have to sneek kindreds out of Perch in order to collect DNA because the Tau dont want them fighting for other sides and furthuring their genetic diversity.
A Rhino? SLOTH!
Originally Posted by Mr Shadow
First off the SoB are girls.
Second the reason they seem darker is because of the fact they are the Ordo Herecticus' Chamber militant, don't forget that OH Inquisitors test OTHER inquisitors and stuff, so nobody likes them in that respect, but also they hunt the 'Darkest' enemy: The Traitor.
But thats just the way I see it!
I agree that the SM are getting ripped off. When I saw them, I saw them as the little armies of right-hand men to the emperor, like the Stormtroopers in StarWars, or (dare I say) Hitler's SS. Marines struck me as the guys that people called in only when things got too out of hand for the guardsmen, and the only option was brutality. I love the picture in the city-fight codex where the marine has blasted through the wall of the house and is just machine-gunning all the poor heretical gaurdsmen. I mean, their brainwashed to be the perfect soldiers. SUPER-SOLDIERS SHOULDN'T HAVE COMPASSION :wub: !! Now it's like people see them as firemen or cops, they go 'heroically' rushing into the building and drag out mommy, the dog, and the children on his broad-armored shoulder saying "I know, it was the heretics, everything will be alright now." NO!
Not in any book i have ever read has a marine ever saved a dog. They are as likly to step on mommy as they are to save her. They have moments when they feel for the suffering of imperial citizens because they remember that the mandate of all sm is to protect the people of the imperium, the servants of the Emperor, but often they leave them to their fate to uphold the greater mission.
A Rhino? SLOTH!
Space Marines are a complicated animal. They are supposed to be humanity's monsters. Unrelenting brutal monsters that mercilessly decimate neverything in thier path with cold, uncaring efficiency..but they're also expected to be noble and honest and shining examples of how an hounorable warrior of the Emperor should behave. Somehow the idea is that they mesh these two aspects into one whole, but GW hasn't really had much luck doing so. Then again personalities and attitudes vary between Space Marine chapters. Some see it as thier job to protect the Emperor's people and treat them rather well, others see humans as worthless expendable cattl and would sonner kick one then save it. It all depends on the chapters I guess. An Ultramarine would probably be welcomed and celebrated as a superhero by normal humans, whereas an Iron Hand would be looked upon as something to be feared and respected from as far away as possible. I do agree that marines aren't as dark as they should be. for a while they where getting away from the whole "Space Knights" thing and turning into super sci-fi ubertroopers. Luckily a lot of the GW guys are trying to pull them back in the right direction though.