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i have a few questions about the ultramarines/Roboute guilliman, here they are.
1. Are some of the Ultramarines actually stationed near the Cadian gate? because that is what i heard.
2. Were the Ultramarines far away from Terra during the great crusade? (i think i read somewhere that they were, but i dont remember exactly).
3. Does anyone think Roboute Guilliman could beat Fulgrim if they had a re-match? And does anyone think Roboute Guilliman could beat these primarchs--->Corax, Curze, Mortarion. in a fight?
4. Does Roboute have any other specific battle traits other than being a tactical genious and somewhat good at CC fighting?
5. What weapons did Guilliman use before he got the gauntlets of Ultramar?
6. How tall is he?
these questions just popped up into my head. Use your imagination on some of them
Last edited by Teh_Primarch; July 29th, 2005 at 08:37.
1.) The Ultramarines have created a Honor Guard (company sized) out of their successor chapters. This unit is usually led by an Ultramarine, so yes, there are smurfs at the gate.
2.) Yes they were, if you have a map of the galaxy, you can see that Ultramar is quite far away from Terra. Furthermore, their attempt to reach Terra in Time was effectivly destroyed by the Alpha Legion
3.) Who knows? He is a Primarch, but Fulgrim and Magnus are demon primarchs, have much more experience. I don't know who would win. Yes he could beat them all, but he could also being raped by Fulgrim if he tries.
4.) He was a master of logistics and support.
5.) Power Sword and Bolter i guess
6.) Like the rest of the primarchs. He was not exceptiional.
1) as Kelnor said, though I think more of them were Ultramarines than from any successors.
2) I wouldn't have put it as bluntly, but yes, the Ultramarines did so well that they crusdaded so far from the core systems it was easy for the heretic legions to hamper their efforts to return to Terra when needed (victims of their own success).
3) Corax is loyal to the Throne so that's not really valid, as for the others, it's down to the old debate of Courage and Honour (faith, whatever) vs. Chaos lies (whoops, may sound prejudiced there, never mind).
4) ditto with Kelnor, though what more do you need in combat apart from strategy and fighting skill? Sniping? Not really the Primarch way.
5) Kelnor all the way again.
6) And again.
1). What Kelnor said.
2). The Ultramarines were nowhere near Holy Terra during the great crusade. This is a controversial point actually. There are several versions of what the Ultramarines legion did while Horus was attacking Terra. All three versions state that the Ultramarines had grown to be by far the largest legion, and they all have the Ultramarines being gathered near Ultramar. One version has the entire Ultramarines legion and their primarch being waylayed at Calth by a surprise attack by a relatively small force of Word Bearers. Another version has them being attacked at Calth by a sizeable contingent of Alpha Legion lead by Alpharious. Either way, the Ultramarines seemed to use their entire
force to defend the unremarkable and unimportant wold of Calth. Another version has Robute Guilliman not ever hearing that anything was wrong until the Seige of Terra was half overwith. The many marine players out there who dont like the Ultramarines, and I'll be honest that includes myself, criticize the Ultramarines for their lack of action. Every other legion had a major role to play in the Heresy. Those loyal legions who werent at terra were either destroyed at Istvaan (and even then they managed to crawl their way to Terra in small numbers), or actively persuing their own campaigns against the traitor legions. The Ultramarines chose to sit this one out. Istvaan was on the eastern rim, not too far away from Ultramar actually. And yet the Salamanders, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Death Guard, Emperor's Children, World Eaters, and Iron Warriors were all sent to Istvaan and they were all stationed much further away from Istvaan than the Ultramarines were. They also were all a lot smaller. So these 7 legions traveled halfway across the galaxy to confront the Sons of Horus at Istvaan, and the Ultramarines, the largest legion in the Imperium, sat idly nearby and didnt raise a finger. And then after 3 legions were all but wiped out, the White Scars and Blood Angels hightailed it to Terra where the Imperial Fists were stationed to protect the Emperor, the Dark Angels battled themselves, and the Space Wolves devestated Prospero, the Ultramarines stayed at Ultramar. By all accounts, the Ultramarines didnt react until the Heresy was tossed right through their front window, and then they took the opportunity to deploy the whole legion to defend and unimportant world. Well, thats what you get when you put an author in command of a military force. A lot of people think that Guilliman was sitting on the fence, waiting to see who would win before choosing which side to fight for. Personally, I think that Guilliman figured that the Imperium was doomed and so abandoned the Emperor to his fate, meanwhile he reinforced his control over his own region of space and established his own private empire of Ultramar as some sort of last bastion of mankind. That would explain why such a large force, one that the histories describe as being so wonderful and powerful, sat the Heresy out, didnt participate in Istvaan even though they were the closest force at the time, didnt send anybody even remotely towards Terra until long after the seige was over (read fluff on which legions were headed to reinforce Terra and forced Horus to make his fatal gambit and you see the Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and the remains of the legions on Istvaan, but no Ultramarines), and then only acted in the defense of their little empire of Ultramar. After the Emperor was entombed in the golden throne, its pretty obvious that Roboute Guilliman thought that he was the new emperor as he started writing all kinds of Imperial law like the Codex Astartes and then enforcing his ideas on the rest of the Imperium, using his massive numbers of troops as political weight and abolishing the war council.
3. Roboute Guilliman lost to Fulgrim for a reason. There are only two accounts of Guilliman fighting primarchs, once fighting Alpharious and once fighting Fulgrim. The jury is out on whether the story of him killing Alpharious is true or not because there are a lot of stories where Alpharious faked his own death to teach his troops to fight on without him, and the fact that the Alpha Legion is still a unified force suggests centralized leadership as if Alpharious were still alive. Fulgrim, however, is not just a primarch, but a primarch daemon prince. Monsterous in size and his already incredible abilities heightened with daemonic power. As Fulgrim persued perfection in his combat skill even before he went to Chaos, I'd say that Roboute wouldnt have a chance as he never was considered a particularly skilled fighter. He was an author and a master of logistics, more of a general than a warrior. When fighting somebody sword to sword you pretty much take any shot that you can get at the enemy, and the fact that Fulgrim outclassed him enough to select to slit his throat suggests that Fulgrim had Guilliman completely outclassed. Even if Guilliman got lucky, he couldnt kill Fulgrim. As a daemon prince the best that Guilliman could do would be to banish him back to the warp for a specific length of time, at the end of which Fulgrim would come back to the material universe.
Mortarion is also a daemon prince and so Guillman would be outclassed there. Also, despite popular belief, Mortarion was one of the more hands on primarchs and got into fights a lot, although not commonly with Primarchs even though Mortarion didnt have many friends. He fought with a powerful runescythe and a master crafted plasma pistol (hence the DG's penchant for plasma weaponry), and had the reputation of being the toughest of the primarchs. Seeing as Mortarion was tougher than Leman Russ, who took the Emperor's powertalon to the face and lived, I'd say that the Gauntlets of Ultramar or a powersword wouldnt do much. I hand that fight to Mortarion, daemon or not a daemon.
Corax was a close combat specialist who used a pair of lighting claws. Although this fight would be closer, Corax would rip him to pieces. But theyre on the same side, why would Guilliman and Corax fight anyway?
As for Konrad Curze, he once beat Rogal Dorn to a pulp and had to be dragged off of him by a group of the other primarchs. Dorn has a better reputation for close combat than Guilliman and so I'd say if the Night Haunter could send Dorn to the narthecium then Guilliman doesnt have much better odds.
4) I think youve been misinformed about Roboute Guilliman. He was no tactical genious and no fighter. He was an author and a logistician, both of which he was unparalleled in skill. But most primarchs far surpassed him in strategic and tactical skill. He might have been better than Magnus, Vulkan, or Lorgar, but everyone else was much better at tactics and strategy. As far as a close combat fighter, he was definately better than a human or a regular space marine, but he was less than average for a primarch. Think of Guilliman as the bookworm nerd of the Primarchs, the pencil pusher. Good at math and history, gets As in all of his classes, but cant play sports worth a darn and gets beaten up by the other boys a lot. Kelnor's right though, Guilliman was an absolute Master in logistics and support, the only one that I can think of that would have a claim to being better than Guilliman would be Malcador the Regent. That guy set up the whole imperium by himself.
5) Yup, bolter and a powersword. Of course they were both mastercrafted. Smart move trading them for the Gauntlets, but mind you that was long after the heresy. During the Great Crusade and the Heresy (which he didnt fight in) he had a powersword and a bolter.
6) About 9 ft tall, like most other primarchs. Average height for a Primarch.
Last edited by Warmaster Phthisis; July 29th, 2005 at 23:45.
Oh damnit, im soo bummed now that i realize how much of a non-fighting primarch guilliman was. I was just thinking about getting back into ultramarines but now i dont want to (my whole decision of collecting a new space marine team is based on their primarch). A little off topic but i didnt wanna start a new thread and bug you guys with my noob questions, so here goes: is Captain Shrike the chapter master of the Raven guard? I know he has the primarchs weapons, but im just wondering. And does Captain Lysanders hammer "the fist of dorn" actually contain the skeletal fist of rogal dorn inside it?. I already play blood angels and wanna start a new chapter, Any suggestions? (i want a chapter with a special character who has the primarchs weapons, just for fluff reasons). The only chapters i wouldnt wanna collect are salamanders and maybe not imperial fists cuz i hate their armour. But space wolves and Raven guard are deep in my mind.
Wait one minute, i actually might wanna collect ultramarines because of their chapter master Marnius Calgar. I know some of his fluff, but is he heavy on fighting and would be beat Roboute guilliman in a fight? ( i know their on the same side, but just give reasons why and why not he would win).
1). More specifically, whole successor chapters of the Ultramarines are stationed at the Cadian Gate.
2). The Ultramarines, due to their primarchs strategical genius, were the most successful as stated before by others. However, Roboute Guilliman had a habit of leaving a good few of his warriors to oversee the new world that was just conquered to make sure it grew strong in all facets. So essentially, the Ultramarines were stationed on thousands of worlds across the galaxy. The problem for Horus was, even if Guilliman himself and the main army was far away, the amount of his warriors stationed throughout the numerous worlds they conquered was still the equivalent of the average legion or very close to it. He manipulated Guilliman and made his 'mission' very grave, there were concentrations of Xenos and all other enemies since no one had ever ventured that far. Which was true in itself, but for all intents and purposes, was to get rid of Guilliman, his main army and the loose remnants left on imperial worlds. So Guilliman pulled nearly all his warriors to go with him, which solved Horus' problem.
3). As stated before, he was good but below average by primarch standards.
4). Might as well forget all this ho hum about logistics and tactics and what-have-you. Guilliman was a strategic genius. Logistics is the procurement, maintainance and distribution of personnel and material if i remember correctly. Tactics is the military facet that deals with accomplishing objectives set out by strategy, with emphasis placed on deploying troops and such like. Strategy is the overall planning and conduct of large-scale combat operations. Therefore logic will tell you strategy encompasses tactical command as well as logistics.
5) More than likely a force sword and powerfist. Going by the sabertooth card which is based on the Horus heresy volumes, he has a powerfist but it isn't a full depiction so nothing can be confirmed.
6) Gigantic dude for a bookworm but something like 9 feet odd inches.
Kayvaan Shrike is the Shadow Captain of the 3rd Company of the Raven Guard Chapter. The Ravens Talons are said to have come from Corax himself, as usual, nothing can be confirmed.
Oh no no brother, no chapter is going to use a primarch's body part as a weapon, thats heresy. The hand is in stasis. The Fist of Dorn was given to Lysander by the captain of the 1rst company as he died, he was legendary in power and so they named his thunderhammer the Fist of Dorn for symbolic effect.
I can't be of any assistance with your army dilemna but i think it would be best if you request help in the SM forums. The experts there are very helpful, good luck.
Grand Master Saiyan, you almost took the words right out of my mouth on what Roboute Guillimans skills were, from another post where we talked about this before actually. Well, if you go back and read what I had said was that Roboute Guilliman was a Logistical genious, not a Strategic or Tactical genious. And as stated these are VERY different things. Strategy is the large scale plan for acheiving an objective using all of the resources at hand. Tactics is utilizing your equipment and personel in the best possible way to achieve an objective. Logistics is, as we have both said, the procurement, maintainance and distribution of personnel and materials. Strategy isnt an umbrella term for Logistics and Tactics.
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. Alpharious was a tactical genious, the most skilled tactician of all the primarchs. He realized that the best way to use a Space Marine was in a surprise hit and run attack because of their strenght and ferocity, so he trained his whole army in infiltration. He used everything that was available to him to squeeze extra performance from his troops, including repainting their armor to look like the enemy, attacking from multiple directions, baiting and trapping, attacking at night, etc... These tactics made individual Alpha Legion squads very effective because Alpharious understood that Marines operated best behind enemly lines where they used their own initiative. But because of this, creating an overall strategy was nearly impossible as their individuality made it very difficult to coordinate large scale troop movements. Horus was a master stratego, as he knew how to harmonize the idiums and combat doctrines of the other legions into one force and one battle plan. For instance he'd send the Alpha Legion and Raven Guard in behind enemy lines because that was what they were good at, he'd call the Imperial Fists or Iron Warriors in to deal with any fortifications, and he'd call in the World Eaters and the Blood Angels when he needed a rapidly deploying assault force. But as far as tactics went, Horus wasnt so good, and on many occasions as reported in the fluff Horus found himself and his elite guard overwhelmed by the enemy in small battles. To attack in a particular spot may be strategically brilliant, but if your troops arent used in the optimal way for the situation than your attack can still fail. Strategy and tactics are two completely seperate things, and its very common for someone to excel in one and be incapable of the other because they require very different types of thought.
Logistics is something else entirely. Logisticians dont create battle plans or develop tactics at all and have nothing to do with the battle plan. Their ability is to organize the collection of resources and their distribution. This is what Roboute Guilliman was very skilled at. He could recruit troops faster than anyone else, get them more food, get them more equipment, and get it to them faster. But when it came to utilizing those troops, he was not so good. He could raise an army, but he wasnt very skilled at using that army. Horus job as a stratego was to delegate tasks to those who were best able to complete it, meaning that when it came to organizing newly conquered worlds and raising armies and extracting their resources for use by the crusaders, Guilliman was the primarch for the job. Its rather unglorious, but very important.
Now, I dont know where people keep getting the idea that Guilliman was a strategic genious, the best stratego of the primarchs even. Horus was the master stratego, thats why he was made Warmaster by the Emperor, because he could create brilliant large scale plans to victory and then assign the right forces for the minutia of the mission. Guilliman didnt know the first thing about how to organize the Great Crusade, just how to supply it. Just because Guilliman wrote down strategic and tactical dogma in the Codex Astartes doesnt mean that he knew what he was talking about. Al Gore wrote a book on the environmental crisis, but that doesnt mean that he knows a lick about the environment, or that any of his proposed solutions hold any water (and by the way they dont). Even many of the space marine players complain about how restrictive the Codex based rules on Space Marines would cripple their effectiveness. They conquered a million worlds in 200 years in an incredible blitz across the galaxy under Horus' command, with the large scale and highly co-ordinated military organization of the Great Crusade. Under the Codex Astartes they have barely been able to hold onto the Imperium. We're talking about a primarch that couldnt even get his legion back to Terra in time to see the traitors retreat, a primarch that had the largest legion in the galaxy and lost to the smallest legion (Alpha Legion) on Calth, and a primarch that was never able to hold his own in any campaign against the traitor legions. He had a losing record when alive, single handedly dismanteled the strategic might of the Imperium, tore down the government that the Emperor had built, and then got his throat slit before he knew what hit him by Fulgrim. And since then the Codex Astartes has slowly been going down the tubes, now even the Ultramarines are beginning to ignore parts of the codex and make up their own rules, recruit to over strength, specialize in fighting a single type of enemy, and abandoning the old tactical and strategic dogma of their primarch's holy tome.
Guilliman is over-rated because GW pushes the Ultramarines because theyre the easiest to grab hold of before you know what 40k is about. Theyre easy to paint, use few special rules, and are portrayed as the "good guys" so theyre easy to understand. But once you delve into the history of 40k you realize that the reason that the Ultramarines are such a big part of the Imperium's history because their leader couldnt even manage to show up to defend the human race. And those who turn and run away live to fight another day, or in this case those who get lost and cant find the battle field are left alive and unwounded to strong arm the wounded warriors afterwards and get their way even if their way isnt the best idea.
4. yes, logistics
5. Since almost every primarch had a sword im gonna go with sword.
6. As tall if not a little taller than normal space marines.He is very hands on as well as big on tactics. However, no mortal man or space marine could hope to beat a primarch. And thats after you make up some ludicrous scenario where Calgar and Guilliman would fight. Don't let this dissuade you if you want to play ulramarines. Calgar is still one tough MF, he just can't beat up a primarch.Originally Posted by Teh_Primarch
P.S. Warmaster Phthisis and Grand Master Saiyan Sanguine are invited to check out our new Fluff Masters Clan in the "clubs & clans" section. Anyone who is interested can go as well to look and what-not.
I have seen everyone saying how roboute was just a logistics genius and not a strategic one and i feel that this is not the case. He had an excellent strategy which is why the ultramarines were so successful. His strategy was conquer a world make sure it can look after itself so that they dont have to keep going back and reconquering conquered worlds, then move on to the next world and so forth and so forth. And without strategy do you really think he could of carved himself a nice little empire around macragge?