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ENOUGH of the Female Space Marines (and other unfluffy fluff)!

13K views 91 replies 33 participants last post by  Toastee 
#1 ·
OK, before I start, please forgive the following rant. I love reading the many unique chapter origins that people have come up with, but it really chaps my @$$ when people write fluff that is, well, unfluffy. I really am not trying to offend anyone, but rather to simply express my opinion on the matter. So here are some of the most annoying anti-fluff fluff that I've seen on these forums.

1. Female Space Marines - I am sick and tired of people trying to make female space marine chapters. Or female space marines, period. It has nothing to do with misogyny, or bigotry, or any other bass- ackward thoughts other than the simple fact that it has been stated in the fluff that Space Marines can only be men. I'm all for expounding on the mythology of 40K, but there are still some rules that need to be followed to be fluffy. No one wants to make a Tau space marine, yet for some reason people feel that it's unfair that women can't be space marines. Well, guess what? The whole Imperium is by definition unfair. It's unfair that psykers are killed without trial. It is unfair that no free speech exists. It's unfair when whole planets are decimated because of 10 chaos cultists. And yes, it's unfair that women can't be SM. Too bad. Them's the breaks.

2. DIY Chapter Creation. You cannot have a Space Marine chapter that was founded without the express approval of the High Lords of Terra. So no, you did not kill a SM and figure out how to use the geneseed. You didn't steal a sample of geneseed and use it. That just doesn't happen.

3. Lost First Founding. Your chapter was NOT a lost first-founding chapter. People who write this are like people who get hung up on the size of their manhood. For crying out loud, just because you don't have a unique primarch per se does not confer that your chapter sucks. Just accept the fact that you are ultimately an offshoot, as there is no shame in that. Or play a FF chapter to start with. It's OK, you aren't inferior just because you weren't the first.

4. Non- traitorous traitors. Look, when the traitors turned to chaos, they killed those that weren't on board (look at what happened to the chaplains in all but the Word Bearers). If they didn't turned they were either killed by their comrades or by the loyalist chapters. Or they killed themselves in shame ( remember, for the Imperium penetance = death). And before you start pulling out DA, remember that less than half the chapter rebelled, and the remnants are few and far between. A lost squad wouldn't survive this long after the heresy (which was almost 10,000 years ago), and no, don't say that they were lost in the f(**&565 warp, either ( see #5).

5. Lost in the Warp. The ultimate cop-out. As in, " Well, my chapter would have been the most legendary defender of Terra but they were lost in the warp en route, and that's why no one has ever heard of them". :huh: RIIIIGHT. Very similar to # 3.

6. Technology from the Dark Age. Why do you have 9 plasma guns in a single squad? " Well, my chapter comes from a planet that still has everything from the Dark Age of Technology, so we have all of the best weapons and armor, and our bullets are magic and can kill anything with S10, and our armor is super- strong and we can teleport without scatter , blah, blah..." :rolleyes: Buddy, pretty much all knowledge about the Dark Ages was lost, THAT'S WHY IT IS CALLED THE "DARK AGE"! If you new so much about it, so would the Imperium, and it would be the " Age of Great and Wonderful Knowledge and Overpowered Weapons" or some stuff like that. Nice try.

So , in brief, that is but a few of the " Fluff Fouls" that really annoy me. I think that the greatest fluff is that which has a unique and intriguing story without having to break some pretty well- established fluff tenets. The stuff above is, in my opinion, lazy writing. Anyone can break the rules to be different, but real talent comes from using the rules in a new and special way to craft a great and unique story. Feel free to respond, or add some more things that annoy you. This should be fun.
 
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#2 ·
Agreed. Especially point 3.

But I'm not touching #1 with a twenty-foot pole.
 
#3 ·
Heh, theres a few more that I think you missed there RJ. Mind if I fill them in?

7. Space Marines working for the Tau
Yes, Imperial Guard have sometimes defected to the Tau. But Space Marines arent Imperial Guard! Space Marines are brainwashed to hate all Xenos uncontrollably. Theyre all brainwashed over a course of decades and recieve psycho-surgery to make sure it fits. Even Chaos Marines hate Xenos and wont ally with aliens. Even if somehow a chapter did ally with the Tau, they would be hunted down by all Ordos of the Inquisition, every loyal chapter that could be brought to bear, and the chapter would be hunted into extinction. In addition, Space Marines there would not be able to recruit, repair damaged equipment, or aquire new equipment. Yes, the Tau have advanced technology, but no they cant make Space Marines or any of their equipment. If they could, then there would be genetically modified Tau warriors hulking around tearing peoples heads off. And remember, the Tau normally make their mercenaries equip themselves! In less than 250 years that chapter would be no more. Its impossible in 3 ways, so enough already! It cant happen!

8. Lost Companies or Squads making new chapters.
As was said before, Chapters simply cannot be created without an order from the High Lords. A squad or company caught behind enemy lines will not create a new chapter, no matter how long they have been there. First of all they dont have the equipment to create a new chapter! Chapters require a massive amount of Imperial support and they wont be able to even recruit marine #1 without the support of the High Lords. Second, stranded companies and squads have happened many times in Imperial history, and its very clear that they retain their original chapter indentity until they either all die or they get back to their chapter of origin. Thirdly, if anyone tried this the Chapter would be destroyed by the Inquisition and other Chapters as to change chapter allegiance is trechary most foul.

9. Chapter Master Emperor
Your chapter master is not the Emperor reborn, nor a Primarch, nor a clone of the Primarch. He's a Space Marine. Leave what is GWs to GW to do with as they see fit. They havent let us down yet, have they?

10. DIY Special Rules
This one is particularly frustrating. You see those tables in the back of Codex: Space Marines? Those are the special rules that you can take for DIY chapters! Thats why theyre there! Thats the only reason theyre there! No, your chapter cant re-roll all rolls to hit. No, they cant move and fire. No, they cant hit in close combat on a 3+ no matter who theyre fighting. No, your marines can't count as fearless. No strange weapons combos, no 9 plasma guns in a squad (like above). If its not in the DIY chapter creation rules, then forget it. What gets me even more is that I regularly see DIY chapters that stack 3 or 4 special rules onto their marines and yet they only charge themselves 15pts per marine in their army list? Cmon guys.

11. Chapters at the Seige of Terra
Your chapter was not at the Seige of Terra, nor could they have been. They did not exist until long after the Seige was over. The only ones who were there were the original legions. They had not split into chapters yet.

12. Emperor's Geneseed
Your chapter was not made using the Emperor's geneseed. The Emperor has no geneseed. Space Marines have many many extra organs, just like the Primarchs. The Emperor was a psychic human and did not have these extra organs. Geneseed is used to control the hormones needed for these extra organs. As the Emperor had no Primarch or Space Marine organs, he has no geneseed and you cant use his DNA to control the hormone levels in a Marines body. Thats why the Emperor created the Primarchs, so that he could use their geneseed to stabilize the hormone levels inside his Space Marines. Your chapter was made using a Primarch's geneseed, or maybe even more than one Primarch's geneseed. But not the Emperor, as the Emperor has no geneseed!
 
#4 ·
13. Gushing about your chapter is the most loyal super powered chapter of doom, and how your marines are more loyal than anyone's elses. No, they aren't, there's no really conceivable reason why your chapter is more loyal than the Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, Blood Angels or any of the the other legions who have been fighting in the Emperor's name. And anyway, both rules and fluff-wise, the Grey Knights are more powerful and loyal than any marine chapter.

14. My chapter was originally founded as the Emperor's personal force of bodyguards.....no they weren't. The Adeptus Custodes are the Emperor's Bodyguards, that niche is long filled.

15. Chaos Tau, NO
 
#5 ·
Warmaster Phthisis said:
10. DIY Special Rules
This one is particularly frustrating. You see those tables in the back of Codex: Space Marines? Those are the special rules that you can take for DIY chapters! Thats why theyre there! Thats the only reason theyre there! No, your chapter cant re-roll all rolls to hit. No, they cant move and fire. No, they cant hit in close combat on a 3+ no matter who theyre fighting. No, your marines can't count as fearless. No strange weapons combos, no 9 plasma guns in a squad (like above). If its not in the DIY chapter creation rules, then forget it. What gets me even more is that I regularly see DIY chapters that stack 3 or 4 special rules onto their marines and yet they only charge themselves 15pts per marine in their army list? Cmon guys.
Which has nothing to do with fluff per-se.

But what about those you base rules on their fluff...which is what that paragraph seems not to mention.
For example. My Chapter can induct Imperial Guard the same why SoB or DH can (Friendly games only, and opponents permission.)

Why? My marines share a system with an IG Regiment....withh a few actually. Not different ones, but the same.

Thats pretty much the ONLY benifit I get since Im a codex chapter to an extent, therefore have no traits.

My Chapter Masters Honour Guard. (Note: NOT Command Squad) Are a squad of Vulpmunden Storm Troopers.
Why? Because, that particular unit helped save him when his command squad fell to Tyranids.

Now, please dont think that all us DIY chapters just have special rules.

For example. I can't take Ven Dreads.
Why? My Chapter is between 700 to 800 years old. It's too young to have them.

I can only take one dread per list/chart for the same reason.

I can only take one squad of Termies, again for the same reason. That and my first company only has 20 anyway.

As you can see, pretty much, the rules I have for my chapter are based on my fluff.
 
#7 ·
As to female Space Marines ... um ... well, 40k is a game that people can interpret however they want to ... and I realize there are arguments for and against them, but the least a person can do is listen to the other side's arguments .. Check out the Fighting Tigers chapter (forget the website) for some good female SM stuff ....

I'm "sick and tired of" people who don't look at 40k the way it's meant to be looked at. That is, with an open mind. Not just "omg GW does this so it's the only way"...



 
#8 ·
Lost Nemesis said:
As to female Space Marines ... um ... well, 40k is a game that people can interpret however they want to ... and I realize there are arguments for and against them, but the least a person can do is listen to the other side's arguments .. Check out the Fighting Tigers chapter (forget the website) for some good female SM stuff ....

I'm "sick and tired of" people who don't look at 40k the way it's meant to be looked at. That is, with an open mind. Not just "omg GW does this so it's the only way"...
Well said, Lost Nemesis. It is a fact that little-to-none of GW fluff is etched in stone. I mean, we have over a dozen races and a full 10,000 years to work with. There will be gaps in fluff. It is up to individual commanders to fill these fluff gaps. Speaking of the Fighting Tigers of Veda, I just so happen to have the link to their page. Welcome to the jungle!

Now then, I have an interesting question. Are there any Space Marines from the Iron Hands, Salamanders, or Raven Guard who remember the Istvaan V Massacre? The answer is yes. The Raven Guard 5th Company has the honor of having Venerable Brother Geordi among them. Just like that, I have filled in a fluff gap.

Victorus our mortis,
-Archetype
 
#9 · (Edited)
Some additions..

1. Extra-big/extra-bad space marines - Space marines are already 10 feet tall, can crush skulls with one hand etc etc. Apart from cursed founding chapters (which have their own drawbacks.. really big drawbacks) and the crazy freaks made by Fabius Bile (which are not even space marines) there really is no room in the 40k universe for a chapter whose members are genetically mutated to be even bigger and tougher than regular space marines. If nothing else, that makes you a mutant, and the Emperor's chosen aren't allowed to be mutants without a good reason.

2. 'My chapter are such paragons of loyalty that...' - This isn't quite in the same league, but it irritates me immensely. Almost every player-made loyalist chapter seems to be a paragon of virtue and loyalty whose members have no doubts or human failings. Space marines may be highly indoctrinated and physically puissant, but they're still fundamentally humans, with human flaws. This is what makes them interesting characters, rather than soulless automatons who we can't invest emotionally in. Similarly, you don't have to be a paladin who sticks his sword in the air and shouts heroic statements every 5 minutes to be a space marine. The flesh tearers are a loyalist chapter, aren't they?

3. Unjustified statements - Okay, so your chapter likes riding bikes. That's cool, but why do they like riding bikes? Are they drawn from a steppe culture where vast distances are the defining factor of warfare, or an urban world where biker gangs are prominent. When you make a statement, qualify it and explain the reason behind it. Writing fluff is not just about describing your army (i.e. 'they like plasma weapons because I've given each of my squads one.') It's about describing why that army is as it is, (i.e. 'they like plasma weapons because they come from a world with ancient ties to the adeptus mechanicus, where high quality methods of plasma weapon manufacture are still maintained.')
 
#10 ·
There is an ovearching metaplot that GW has created, however, if you want to do something that goes against the metaplot but still follows the rules straight out of their Codex's as they are written, then why bother chastising them?

Who cares if someone wants to think that their chapter was an original founding chapter? If they show up to the game and use the rules from the Space Marine Codex, without making up their own cheesy rules, then I don't really care.

You wanna slap some female heads and boobies on your Space Marines? See if I care. But when you show up to the game table, you had better pick a set of rules and follow them.

My last point is this: If you are writing some fluffy story and you aren't making an army based off of it, then yeah, you should follow the rules that GW has set out for you. Why? Because there are a million stories you could write without ever having to depart from what GW has said exists in their universe.

When it comes to modeling, however, I say do whatever looks good to you, even if it breaks the fluff. I mean GW can break their own fluff for the sake of the game, so why can't we? :rolleyes:
 
#11 ·
The_Giant_Mantis said:
2. 'My chapter are such paragons of loyalty that...' - This isn't quite in the same league, but it irritates me immensely. Almost every player-made loyalist chapter seems to be a paragon of virtue and loyalty whose members have no doubts or human failings. Space marines may be highly indoctrinated and physically puissant, but they're still fundamentally humans, with human flaws. This is what makes them interesting characters, rather than soulless automatons who we can't invest emotionally in. Similarly, you don't have to be a paladin who sticks his sword in the air and shouts heroic statements every 5 minutes to be a space marine. The flesh tearers are a loyalist chapter, aren't they?
That is a very good one. I really dislike how space marines no longer have that dar gothic feel. Part of this probably comes from new players thinking the marines are as you put it, Paladins in shinning armour ready to destroy the emporer's enemies in just and rightful combat. :huh:
 
#12 ·
Lost Nemesis said:
As to female Space Marines ... um ... well, 40k is a game that people can interpret however they want to ... and I realize there are arguments for and against them, but the least a person can do is listen to the other side's arguments .. Check out the Fighting Tigers chapter (forget the website) for some good female SM stuff ....

I'm "sick and tired of" people who don't look at 40k the way it's meant to be looked at. That is, with an open mind. Not just "omg GW does this so it's the only way"...
First, I'm glad that I could start a discussion that had so many thoughtful and polite responses. Congrats to everyone for keeping this a mature discussion.

Look, iLN, t's not a matter about having an open mind, it's a matter of lazy writing. I am willing to hear just about anything, and if well presented, I'm likely to change my mind. I have heard this whole "female space marines" schtick since 1990. I have never heard a cogent argument or good fluff for it other than " well, it's what I want, so THERE". If you say the fluff that GW passes down is unreliable, you're right ("Star Child", anyone?). But at least take the time to come up with some fluff to explain it. I know all about the "Fighting Tigers" chapter, and the example is a bad one to hang your hat on. You know why they have females? Because the painter made some with white stripes, and some with orange stripes, and needed something to justify it, hence the female marines (it's true, read the website).

As for another reason why there aren't any female Space Marines, consider the following; the whole point of the Marines is to have a superhuman force of super-murderers that will annihilate the enemy. The whole point is to defend humanity from the hordes of aliens that want nothing other than the complete annihilation of the human race (except for the Tau, who just want to hold our hands and sing 'Kumbaya' together- in the round, no less :p ). Now, if you were creating this force, you would want the biggest, strongest, meanest SOB's that you could find, who would stop at nothing to maim and kill the enemy at all costs. Screw honor and nobility, you want the xeno bastards to die. It's kill or be killed. Now would you jeopardize that unit's effectiveness just for the sake of diversity? Or use the geneseed on someone who is not already at the limits of human strength, aggressiveness and endurance? No, you wouldn't. And before I get someone to call me a misogynist, it's the sad truth that the strongest men are physically stronger than the strongest females (although aggressiveness has no sex preference ;) ). GW didn't make that one up, folks. So there's that reason for you, too.

Oh, and by the way, I can think of a great reason to say that there are female space marines... but I ain't telling. If someone wants a female space marine, they can take the 10 minutes to think of it like I did and write it. You can consider the gauntlet dropped.
 
#13 ·
First off, Im glade that someone posted this thread (it was overdue). Also its is BS to have female space marines. First off, why have them, I mean there is the Sisters of Battle great fluff can come from that, also a space marine has no reproductive organs anyways so that arent really men or women so to speak, but why would they make a space marine chapter, add in the reproductive organs taht make women, and then once a month have the whole chapter be moody, HEY, make fluff on whole female space marine chapter having PMS GREAT!

I couldnt agree more with the lost in the warp idea, I mean there are limits come on.

Another Get your fluff accurate, I have a pre-heresy Death Guard Army, and yes I do not have melta weaponry of any kind, all my plasma is on my dreadnought (as fluff dictates), I have the old rounder tanks, and the old MK3 MK4 armour. People cant say oh my chapter was masters of the melta weaponry and they were given the best armour, that is now being used today, hey put it back in your pants.

Also please read the GW fluff BEFORE you type your own, I mean there were only 20 chapters pre-heresy, and you cant be the 34th chapter Blod Gut Eagles or something. . . . . . . . . and they werent lost in the warp, all Im saying is be creative but dont type dumb things, I mean obvious dumb things.
 
#14 ·
Toastee, my statement wasnt made towards your Domini Vulpes. Using Imperial Guard allies is fine with me, and that seems to be what youre doing. What I'm talking about is rules for blatant powergaming.

On another forum I saw a DIY chapter where every unit had a rule that allowed him to re-roll rapid firing with his bolters, and he gave them the "Slow and Puropsefull" rule from the Thousand Sons, gave them True Grit, and gave them Stubborn so that they'd automatically pass all morale tests. This wasnt even some special unit, which still would have been outlandish, but rather every tac squad, devestator squad, and command squad in the army. So, how much do you think these special rules cost him? Nothing, zero, zilch, nada. Tac marines were still 15pts. When it was pointed out to him that his special rules were extremely cheesy, he said that he'd -1 WS on the first round of close combat. Still not an even trade. Regardless of what the background fluff says, this kind of powergaming deserves censure.

Go ahead and take IG allies and stormtroopers and such. But the moment you want to start including GKs in your command squads, or start moving and firing heavy weapons, or taking free bonuses to your to-hit rolls, or in any other way designing your army to take unfair advantages over opponents who actually play the game, thats where I draw the line.
 
#15 ·
Goodness, it isn't that big a deal. Armies are created with stupid background fiction all the time, by people who are too lazy or too inept to do it well, or simply by people that have an idea that they like and don't care if it doesn't really work in at all with that which is described in the relavent body of published fiction, which we refer to as "the 40k universe." (or the universe, as I will refer to it on occasion in this post)

Personally, as long as it's well written and has some value unto itself (such as the afformentioned 'Tigers of Veda' fluff) I don't mind if it is stupid in the context of the 40k universe or not.

That being said, it is quite simply ridiculous to claim that female Space Marines somehow fail to absolutely contradict the truth of the 40k universe. Officially, there are no female Space Marines. That is clear.

It is pretty much undeniable that the 40k universe is what its creators* make it to be and only that. That, combined with the fact that the only statements ever issued on the subject by those creators deny the existance of female Space Marines make the above conclusion virtually incontrovertible.


There are a few objections which could be made to this, and I'll go through the ones for which the counter seems like it might not be blatantly obvious.

First, it could be (and has been) stated that the creators of the game and the relavent fiction all the time. If they said tomorrow that there were female Space Marines, everyone would pretty much have to accept it. If the world is that malleable, dissidents might question, then who's to say that I can't make my marines female?

Well, the creators. Yes, they can change the fiction at a whim. That's their perogative, gained from having written the stuff in the first place. It isn't yours, however, because you are not one of the creators of the fiction. If you create your own fiction in which there are female Space Marines, then you have your own animal--at that point, it is no longer the 40k universe that your fiction is describing but something else altogether.


(*)Second, it could be said that everyone who plays a game of 40k is a creator. After all, the narrative element of the game itself is pretty much undeniable--each game represents, at least in some small way, a piece of fiction whose subject matter l lies within the 40k universe, and so, in every game you play, you create relavent fiction--making you a creator of the 40k universe.

That may be true. Certainly, it is one way to look at it. However, it would be foolish to grant to all those who play games--even if you insist on them being labeled as creators of the 40k universe--equal say in the properties of that universe. If someone publishes a book and it states that bolters fire lasers, then every single one of the original designers of the game issues a statement that bolters actually fire self-propelled, fin stabilized sabbots, which statement (given that they can not both be true about the 40k universe) do you think should define what the truth is? The answer is clearly the statement made by the original designers. The long and short of this is that even if one creates relavent fiction, the quality of that fiction, its volume of publication and absorbtion, and even the proximity of the creator to the state of having participated in the original creation of the universe itself (along with probably a number of other factors) all go into detirmining the impact each bit of fiction has on the universe itself. If you write up a story about your female marines and hand it out to your friends, and the designers of the game write a story about how female marines can't possibly exist in the 40k universe--which one do you think ought to impact the nature of the 40k universe itself? If you're still sticking with your female marines, you really have to admit that you're talking about a different universe--clearly the designers have you beat in the realm of 40k.


Anyway, there are probably a few more, but I'll wait to see what people come up with. Short of delving into the fluff itself for loopholes (which I'll say right now, in short, is going to be a fruitless endeavour) I can't think of any--and even if I did, I wouldn't want to write about them now. So, I'll see what you all have to say.
 
#16 ·
doesn't it say in IA 1 in the Creation of a Space Marine, that it is actually the testosterone levels in the body that allow some of the implants and modifications to work, and that traces of Estrogen will actually cause them to fail?
(don't have it infront of me atm)
Wouldn't that unequivacibly rule out the whole Female Space Marine thing?
 
#17 · (Edited)
There are some really good posts here. I'd just like to add something that bugs me, which might be a bit controversial as alot of people seem to go in for it, but here I go anyway(deep breath):

I hate it when people base their army on historical forces/cultures. By this I mean basing it entirely on the culture, not just being influenced by it.

An example: I don't mind if someone's guard army is made of valhallans with vaguely slavic names, and the fluff asserts that the Imperial Governer of the world is a hereditary dictator who rules the planet via strict communism. That's cool I guess, if a little unoriginal.

But what I hate is when an army shows up from the planet Moscow IV with a hammer and sickle on their banners and a HSO with a moustache and a bouffant called "Josef Staalin". I just don't find it funny, it's embarrasing self-parody, and while Games Workshop themselves used to do this (and in the case of WHFB still do) I fricken hate it!

It just totally destroys my suspension of disbelief. I mean what are the chances of any pre-Imperial human culture surviving in any form? Slim to none that's what. It's ludicrous to suggest a coincidence of such magnitude that a culture that happened to descend from a 20th century (or earlier) earth culture would exist with exactly the same iconography, names and system of government. I'm looking at you NAZI guard armies. :mad:

Same with SM chapters that have words like Samurai or Pharoah (or some other ancient earth culturally specific term) in their names.

OK, it's just vaguely possible that the culture of your chapter's homeworld might be descended from the earth nation of Japan, but you can't tell me they have a fuedal system exactly like the one Japan happened to have for a couple of hundred years in the middle ages and it has somehow been reproduced, terms and all, 40,000 years in the future.

What happened to modern Japan? Did they all decide to regress to feudalism during the golden age of technology and rediscover their samurai heritage? Then turn into Space Marines? Don't even get me started on Eldar ninjas or xeno medics with red crosses on their gear (Even the Imperium wouldn't use red crosses! They aren't Christians people!) Aaargh! :mad:

Rant over. Thank you for listening.
 
#18 ·
I think this thread is great.

My view is that GW may have created a universe but their fluff only covers a small part of it - there is huge scope for everyone else to fill in details with their own fluff but you still have to follow the guidelines laid down by GW in the first place. So if they say no female Space Marines and only 20 first founding Space Marine Chapters/Legions, then too bad.

mpdscott, you're right about the Creation of a Space Marine article and you can find it on the GW UK site right here.
 
#19 ·
robotnik said:
Don't even get me started on Eldar ninjas or xeno medics with red crosses on their gear (Even the Imperium wouldn't use red crosses! They aren't Christians people!)
Just to back you up, Robotnik, IIRC the organisation Red Cross does not exist in a number African or Asian states, it's the Red Crescent. In Isreal, it is the Red Star. And yes the workers have red crescents or red stars on their uniforms. I've worked with UN and seen it, (kinda funky the first time, if you aren't ready for it).
 
#20 ·
It just totally destroys my suspension of disbelief. I mean what are the chances of any pre-Imperial human culture surviving in any form? Slim to none that's what. It's ludicrous to suggest a coincidence of such magnitude that a culture that happened to descend from a 20th century (or earlier) earth culture would exist with exactly the same iconography, names and system of government. I'm looking at you NAZI guard armies
I couldn't agree more. I mean, I play Catachans because they are vaguely reminiscent of Vietnam era soldiers, but I didn't name their planet Vietnamia VIII. I'm even going with the entire motif of painting sharks teeth on the sides of my planes and writing slogans on the tanks, but my fluff is entirely fresh and new and nothing to do with the Vietnam war.

GW has already gone and made a "nazi" army, by way of the Death Korps of Krieg, but you can play them and make them look like a German army of that era without putting a Swastika on your tank. I mean, it's not like I'm painting American flags on my Catachan army.

I'm a Messianic Jew and I really don't mind looking at a well painted Death Korps of Krieg army. Let's face it, the WWII Germans probably had the most appealing uniforms and insignia of any army before or since then. It was an army built on certain symbolisms instead of just functionality, and I can appreciate that. But please leave the Swastikas for your Panzer Tank models where they belong, not in 40k.

Kudos Robotnik.
 
#21 ·
robotnik said:
Even the Imperium wouldn't use red crosses! They aren't Christians people! Aaargh! :mad:
Actually the red cross on white base is a conversion of the swiss flag - after all it was a swiss guy who "invented" the red cross organization during WW1. ;)

I have to throw in that the Imperium uses a lot of terran stuff in GW's very own fluff. Not really very original but it is there. Be it the christian crosses, roman eagles or the french fleur-de-lys. I'm sure we can find many more if we just look out for them. Blame GW for it.
Of course there might be reasons. In earth's history it happened a lot of times that people with influence picked up symbols from eras long gone. Take Napoleon, for example, who was very fond of the ancient roman Empire - and thus adopted the imperial eagle. Other ancient symbols are still used today but now have another meaning for common people, like the pentagram. There are numerous examples for this. Easter celebrations today are meant to honor Jesus' resurrection - but did you knew that originally Eastern was already celebrated long before the christian cult emerged?
 
#22 ·
Go ahead and take IG allies and stormtroopers and such. But the moment you want to start including GKs in your command squads, or start moving and firing heavy weapons, or taking free bonuses to your to-hit rolls, or in any other way designing your army to take unfair advantages over opponents who actually play the game, thats where I draw the line.
It'll never happen. The GK don't like me too much XD Or at least have suspisions =O.O=

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't having a go or anything. And I did think you meant the Powergaming rules, but there are people out there who will think every rule made is somehow powergamey in someway.
So I just had to make sure the record was straight for all us DIY'ers that don't make stupid and insane rules. *grin*
 
#23 ·
Lynata said:
Easter celebrations today are meant to honor Jesus' resurrection - but did you knew that originally Eastern was already celebrated long before the christian cult emerged?
Most Christian holidays are based on a pagan holiday, (scheduling wise). I think it had to do with the Eclesiasty, (spelling?), trying get the masses to follow their idiology. This is easier to do, of course, if there is very little change to peoples lives. (ie. the dates of your holidays don't change).
 
#24 ·
Hey,

An interesting topic, and thoughtful posts.

In principle, it's easier to destroy than to create.

It's easier still to ignore all thought but your own.

I appreciate original fluff and lists that stay within canon.

I get the feeling those authors think well of others.

At least well enough to have made the effort . . .

To those people I say, "Thanks"!


Playa
 
#25 ·
My oh my, isnt this a hot little topic?

My 2p:
I do find myself anoyed by poorley written or researched fluff, particularly when it contradicts existing fluff (take the My chapter were there or would have been except for a warp acident at th defense of terror - clearly not true, there were no chapters at the defense of terra, only the FF leigons, and not all of them)

But clever stuff I have no problem with, lets look at female marines:

The genesplicing used is based on the X chromasone, the increase in testosterone and supression of other hormones as well as sterility and probably suppression of sexual urge (all armys have rumours of Bromide in the tea) means that should a candidate pass whatever tests required by a chapter and happen to be female, they will then undergo years of change, look at the IA stuff on BA, candidates are wizened and wasted, plagued by deease and malnutrition, they are entombed in sarcophagi and appear 2(from memory) years later, as prime physical specimines - all that tampering clearly vastly changs the body of candidates into the superhuman (and clone like) physique of SMs, this would apply to a woman as much as a man -look at female body builders - see how they look like men - this is not a patch on what happens to SMs, a female SM would be so altered as to be indiscernable from their male colleagues unless completely naked!, they would not be encouraged to grow some beufont hairstyle and start wearing lippy, so why worry?
 
#26 ·
games workshop have not said CLEARLY what males have that females don't that means they can't be space marines. A few people say stuff about testostorone, which can be given to females (as far as i know anyway) and females get the x chromizone from their fathers. Besides, who is to say that females cannot be made into space marines. perhaps males are BETTER at becoming space marines than females, so the emperor decided to make his primarchs male, even though it was possable to be space marines. And perhaps an apothecary has experimented on females and has had success.

It is not unfluffy to have female space marines if you explain it properly
 
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