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OK, so here is a bit of a spin off another topic in which I was completely wrong about the emperor and Horus, but enough of that.
I was reading last night in my fluff and I can't remember if it was a WD or necron codex where in a brief article it talks about some adept who has figured out thet the necrons are at "the heart of the Imerium".
Ok, so to keep this focused, is there any other fluff anywhere that makes refernce to this. As best I can figure it is either the necrons have some influence on the Golden Throne, at least mechanically, or possibly the have influence on the innermost circles of the Adeptus mechanicus on Mars.
I am not saying what the threat is, as I don't know, although I am looking for any additional fluff in Black Library books to help sort out what it could be.
For the record, I am inclined to think that Mars may be the more likely answer and here is why.
Adeptus mechanicus is charged with the disposition of pariahs, but with the awaking of the necrons, pariahs have been found among the armies of the necrons with the same persoanl attributes, ie. no warp prescence.
The machine spirit, you will note how imperial vehicles can shoot on there own in a limited degree. This in the fluff seems to be tied to every machine made in the imperium.
Bionics have changed over the editions, used to be they gave you a strength bonus, but no they allow you to get back up, granted on a 6.
Anyway, does anyone know of any additional information related to the necrons and they're "threat to the heart of the imperium"
Please for give me for not citing exactly where the article is, but I think it is the necron codex. I'll look later on
THE BEATINGS SHALL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES
Basically, there is a lot of speculation that one of the C'tan (The Dragon) is sleeping under the surface of Mars. He might even have played a role in the creation and evolution of the machine cult, or been the inspiration for the machine god himself.
I'll sum up the validity of these by saying that I think evidence for a C'tan being on mars is quite compelling.. Stuff like the Necron ships trying to get through to mars, the dragon supposedly being on a 'red forge world' etc. The evidence for the dragon being the machine god, on the other hand, is pure guesswork and people coming up with theories of their own. As far as I'm aware, there has been no denial or confirmation of this anywhere.
The adeptus mechanicus is not charged with the disposal of Pariahs. They deal with technology, not mutation. If anything, the Inquisition and the Officio Assassinorum are responsible for training and controlling sanctioned Pariahs. Most Pariahs, however, are probably never recognised for what they are, and live out their lonely miserable lives without ever being discovered by Imperial institutions.
A machine spirit in the tank sense is a bio-mechanical construct, like a crude AI system. It's made by humans, and is not necron in origin. 'Machine Spirit' is also the general term for the spiritual essences which supposedly drive the functioning of all machines under AM doctrine.
Last edited by The_Giant_Mantis; October 7th, 2005 at 18:03.
Thanks for the reply, although I have not heard of the dragon unitl now.
However, I was reading last night in the codex Assassins about the culexus assassins and I could have sworn that with the initial discovery of pariahs and the subsequent experimentation on them, that it was the adeptus mechanicus who volunteered to take charge of them and deal with their extermination rather than have the High lord of terra mandate their extermiation. And it was in turn handed over to the office Assasorium(sp) for thier use as anti-psykers. If I remember correctly the adeptus mechanicus was developing a lot of anti pysker weapons for use in this way and that is how they came to take charge of them. I could be mistaken though, Ihave to go back and read the codex to be sure.
Also of note is that the number of pariahs taken do not match the number "executed". This is also taken from codex assassins on the culexus.
Many of the culexus "die" during training/indoctrination, which could be, and this is pure specualtion, the origin of the necron pariahs, ie those that are not deemed of suitable material to be an assassiin are put into necron dermis, although this point is pure specualtion.
I know nothing about the dragon, but to me, it seems as though this would be the work of the deciever. it strikes me as he would be more inlcined to develope all the subterfuge to what end I don't know, but it seems he would be the most likely candidate.
Where can I find fluff about the dragon??
And to the point about the machine spirit, if the spirits were are a bio-mechanicl construct, and these are built by the AM, and if the necrons have influence over the AM, could it not be that the machine Spirit is a crude form of necron sentience?? I don't know for sure so that is why I ask. I think there may be more to it than just a simple bio-mechanical construct. How dangerous would the necron threat be if every piece of machinery was able to be influenced by a c'tan, even in a limted scope. its a thought and pure speculation. Any fluff for or against would be appreciated.
THE BEATINGS SHALL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES
are you implying that the assasins who fail to become assasins, become necron pariahs? arent the assasin temples owned/watched over by the imperium? why wud that happen?Originally Posted by GAR
I'll go out on a wild goose chase here if you don't mind.
Originally Posted by zenarion
Pure speculation, but, the personal attributes of pariahs, both human and necron are almost identical.
I think it is feasible if the AM is involved, but I need to go back and refer to my assassins codex to be sure if it is feasible.
Like I said, if I remember correctly, the AM both developed anti-psyker weaponry, and is responsible for the collection and resolution of pariahs. if the AM get them and provide them to the culexus temple on the edge of the galaxy, then a reasonable conclusion is that they are in part responsible for the production of necron pariahs. Especially if one of the C'tan has influence over the AM and the cult of the machine god. Remeber, necrons pariahs do not have all the benefits of regular necrons and are clearly different, so who is to say one way or another as to the actual "manufacturer" is.
I just can't be sure until I go check Codex Assassins in the culexus fluff.
Who is the dragon and where can I find out more about him??
THE BEATINGS SHALL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES
Please reread my initial post, and note that I said there is no actual basis I can see for the idea that the Adeptus Mechanicus are involved in any Necron conspiracy. If the dragon is on Mars, it's probably still asleep..
All the Pariahs I've read about in the fluff were discovered by Inquisitors. Since the Adeptus Mechanicus don't frequently include psychics in their ranks, they'd have a real problem correctly identifying a Pariah.. the only evidence would be the fact that they instinctively disliked a person without any real reason. All this combines to convince me that, in the modern fluff, as opposed to the initial stages of research, the Adeptus Mechanicus have nothing to do with Pariahs.
Codex Assassins is old and no longer legal, and thus, I'd strongly advice against relying on it entirely for fluff sources.
A machine spirit is a bio-mechanical construct.. it's like a puddle of grey matter with some complex circuitry woven in. Necrons, in case it's not obvious, are mechanical. In the really old days, there were Imperial robots which worked on a very similar principle. It's clear that the Adeptus Mechanicus do not have the knowledge to make functional AI from mechanical components alone, therefore, they probably haven't recieved any such knowledge from the necrons.
That, and machine spirits have been around since the crusade, when the C'tan were still well and truly asleep and incapable of affecting the physical world in any shape or form.
Let's not slip into conspiracy theories, or this thread will go the way of the Emperor/Horus one. Let's stick to what we can actually back up with evidence.
Last edited by The_Giant_Mantis; October 7th, 2005 at 19:05.
Blarg, the forum ate my post. This is a re-write.
We know, that only Four of the original C'Tan still exist. We do not know how many existed (but, dozens at the very least, potentially hundreds).
The four still alive are:
The Deciever (It is the "weakest" of the C'Tan, and has not consumed another of its kind.)
The Nightbringer (The most recently awakened C'Tan, despite The Deciever's best efforts to keep It asleep.
The Dragon (Not much is known about The Dragon, It is an enigma I will expound upon below)
The Outsider (They are awake at the end of the universe, and They have consumed so many other C'Tan, that They have gained a bit of an Associative Identity Disorder (multiple personalities (which is why I refer to The Outsider in the plural "They" rather than "It")). There is no method to Their madness, except that They desire to consume all of the other C'Tan, and hope to draw the attention of the other C'Tan, in the hopes that Their enemies will become exposed, and therefore easy prey).
There are many possible reasons, for the 3 C'Tan escorts to have landed on Mars.
1) The Dragon's forces have awakened, and are assembling, but needed to physically bring a Warp Nexus to Mars, because the nexus on Mars was disassembled during the Dark Age of Technology and used by Humanity to develop Warp Engines.
2) The Dragon's sarcophagus was sealed by an ancient key, as the Nightbringer's was. The Dragon's troops brought that key, and are awakening The Dragon now.
3) The Deciever sent troops to prevent The Dragon from awakening for some unfathomable reason.
4) The Deciever sent troops to awaken The Dragon, for other unfathomable reasons (to fight the Nightbringer, perhaps).
5) The Deciever has succeeded in focusing the attention of Games Workshop's fans on Mars, while The Dragon slumbers elsewhere. (He'd really earn his name if this were true).
6) Games Workshop felt like doing something controversial.
All of these seem equally plausable to me.
Note: 2 of the Necron vessels were destroyed on approach to mars, the third was vaporised by orbital bombardment almost immediately after landing.. Mars is one of the most heavily defended planets in the Imperium, after all. Anything they might have been carrying was.. presumably.. destroyed too.
If they had an objective there.. it either failed, or it really didn't need much time.
Yet the entire area where they landed is still under quarantene, which means that the Imperium either knows that something had time to leave those ships, or suspects that something may have.Originally Posted by The_Giant_Mantis
Given the Necrons' use of short-range teleporation, it is concievable that the ship completed its purpose (delivering a warp portal, or a Tomb Spyder, or any number of other malevolent reasons), while it was landing but before it was blasted into to regenerating metallic vapours.
The ships the crons used were long ranged scouts. My suspicion is that they are ships from the army loyal to the Dragon and they were scouting out Mars before a full-scale invasion.
I shall destroy all who stand in my way. The Emperor shall be reborn in me, the Primarchs shall be remade in me. I shall cast down the Dark Gods, the Star Gods shall be consumed just as they consumed their brothers. Those who fell shall be redeemed, those who remained pure shall be rewarded. The Imperium shall regain its power and the Dark Age of Technology will seem like nothing. For I am the Numen and I am coming