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I have several questions to help along my armies theme if you could please help me.
1. When demons die they return to the warp. Can a sorcerer delay this in any way? like temporarily bind them into reality?
2. demons can't live very long away from the warp. About how long is this if they are say... on Agripinna (a world just past Cadia).
3. Can any old sorcerer bind a demon into a demon weapon? does it have to be a very strong sorcerer? does it depend on the strength of the demon?
4. Can demons ever be completely exterminated? i.e banished from the warp by a powerful sorcerer?
5. Thisones not about demons but how do titans work? how big is there crew? how big are they? are they difficult to transport through space due to size and maintanence?
6. Are the four chaos gods totally in control of every demon in the warp?.
Thanks for any help I just need to get some things sorted out for my army fluff.
1. Not ruleswise. You can probably fluff something up though- some ubersorceror dragging them back to bind them to this world.
2. Not a clue. Depends on how powerful the sorceror is, I suppose.
3. Depends on the strength of the daemon, and the strength of the sorceror. Weedy daemons could probably be tricked into a weapon by a weedy sorceror.
4. C'tan, or other daemons.
5. Titans work like any other warengine: they can't be built now, and they are a mix of arcane, psychic, and mechanical (and probably a bit daemonic, in chaos' case). They do have a crew. In chaos' case, this crew are probably possessed, bound to the machine, partially dead, etc..They are BIG. BIGGER than that.
6. No. They are simply the four with the most purchase on the normal realm, and the most power.
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Well, as the emperor utterly destroyed Horus' presence in the warp, I think he would be able to do the same to daemons.Originally Posted by LordLink
The full answer to your question about the four Chaos Gods control over deamons in the warp is quite long an complicated. The short answer is No but the explanation takes longer.
basically the warp is a reflection of the real or material universe. Hence the soul of every living creature (and even the warp presence of other inanimate things such as streams or planets) is present in the warp. These souls drift across the warp joining with like minded beings, hence the souls of warriors both living and dead will congregate in the warp. These collections of souls can achieve such immense proportions that they begin to form an entirely seperate conscious. The four main chaos Gods effectivly represent the collective of the most common emotions found in the Universe Anger, Despair, Desire and Change (the chaos Gods are more complex than this but this is a summery only). Deamons are the creations of the Chaos Gods made from a proportion of the souls of their worshipers living and dead (hence why they need the warp).
However other souls that exhibit similar characteristics could create their own seperate Gods or deamons for example if many people died in the same area under unusual circumstances this may be enough to create a minor entity in the warp. (Some cults use Suicide pacts for this reason in an attempt to merge their souls and become gods These entities are then able to create their own deamons.)
Finally the Chaos Gods are the four main entities in the WH40K world that have awoken completly other entities are not yet fully conscious though they may wake occasionally.
Hope this helps.
All this background comes from Realms of Chaos, Lost and Damned. GW doesn't really refer to it anymore but it still generally fits with the background.
The Titan question varies greatly between races and the different types of Titans that each race controls.
Imperium- The Imperium has the Warhound Titan very small (comparitivly) between two and three crew (Official stats are in the forge world range)
Reaver which has about four crew
Warlord bigger still between four and eight
and the Imperiator which is absoloutly huge and can have many hundreds of crew members (including IG companies).
On a scale of 1-10 in terms of size the Imperial Titans Go Warhound 1 Reaver 4 Warlord 5 and then the Imperiator is 10 so there is a bit of a jump in the scale.
In an absoulte scale it is different in some pictures Warhounds (the smallest) are shown as Gigantic- as large as skyscrapers, yest GW has produced a warhound model that is somewhat smaller.
I would imagine they are difficult to transport onto a planets surface but then the warships of the Imperium are massive.
Orks have many numerous Titans called Gargants
They range from Stompers (quite small smaller than warhounds) to Mega Gargants which are as huge as Imperiators. Crews range from a dozen or so to many hundreds of Boyz and thousands of Grots.
Chaos Are basically the same as the Imperium though there Titans may be dedicated to certain chaos Gods.
Tyranids have huge Bio Titans imagine a spider enlarged several thousand (10 thousand?) times they are larger than buildings and can lay waste to entire armies.
Last edited by Visitor Q; February 9th, 2006 at 14:21.
A powerful sorceror could infuse an already bound daemon with more power so it could take more punishment before being banished, but thats about it.1. When demons die they return to the warp. Can a sorcerer delay this in any way? like temporarily bind them into reality?The length itself is not something anyone can really say. The closer to the eye of terror the longer but daemons quickly lose their hold on reality if they are idleing so if they aren't in battle doing something to appease their gods they won't last long.2. demons can't live very long away from the warp. About how long is this if they are say... on Agripinna (a world just past Cadia).To actually force a daemon into a weapon would take immense power, thus it usually requires a bit of tact as well as power.3. Can any old sorcerer bind a demon into a demon weapon? does it have to be a very strong sorcerer? does it depend on the strength of the demon?Daemons are for all intents an purposes a disembodied spirit. They just have a more single minded purpose to tehir spirits. Thus anything that can destroy or consume souls can destroy a daemon. Things like the emperor on the golden throne, discharges of positive warp energy, C'tan, perhaps even the explosion of a large warp engine would cause nearby daemon souls to disintegrate.4. Can demons ever be completely exterminated? i.e banished from the warp by a
powerful sorcerer?Berny mac got down the size thing right. But it should be noted that unlike any other imperial vehicle a titan has an incredibly violent and self concious machine spirit. Unlike most vehicle which are driven or piloted a Titans crew are simply there to maintain its systems and direct its power. They don't actually control it, just try to keep it from attacking their own troops.5. Thisones not about demons but how do titans work? how big is there crew? how big are they? are they difficult to transport through space due to size and maintanence?No, they are in general control of the daemons under their sway but their are daemons that don't really owe allegiance to any god, much like their are CSM who don't.6. Are the four chaos gods totally in control of every demon in the warp?.
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Or if they get hold of an unprotected psyker. They can feed off the psyker's link to the Warp, using it to permanently "recharge" themselves. This is why dĂ¦mons only ever get banished; you don't destroy the thing itself, you destroy the connection it has with the world. Once that connection is gone, then there is nothing to sustain them unless there's things like warp storms and so on going on nearby.Originally Posted by Sabe
The EoT... not sure. By my thesis above it would make them almost indestructable, seeing as they are already in the warp, but then no one's really fought many dĂ¦mons in the Eye itself and come out to tell about it (silly old Inquisiton War trilogy aside).The role of a Princeps it debatable in this regard, but otherwise yeah.Originally Posted by Sabe
True daemons don't actually die, they simply lose too much energy to sustain their materialised forms and are sucked back into the warp. It does seem to actually be possible to trap a daemon in the material realm and keep it from returning to the warp for an indefinitely long time; however, the daemon's spirit must be bound into something, meaning that a Chaos sorcerer trapping a daemon on the material plane isn't doing it any favours. The daemon can't interact with the real world, nor can it return to the warp to rematerialise later. Imprisoning a daemon in this fashion is actually the only way short of killing it to keep it from coming back again and again.Originally Posted by LordLink
The Eldar are particularly proficient at doing this, which is why there is a seemingly infinite amount of imprisoned daemons lurking inside mysteriously looking Eldar ruins just waiting for the hapless main character of a Black Library novel or short story to stumble upon its prison and invariably set it free through either greed or stupidity, and most commonly both.As others have said, a daemon's existence in the material world depends on proximity to warp storms such as the Eye of Terror and the Maelstrom, on nearby Chaos-imbued artefacts and unholy rituals, and on how much warp energy they can achieve by doing whatever they were summoned to do. Some daemons only stick around for a few minutes to wreck as much havoc as possible in the short time they can interact with the real world, while others can stay around for days or even weeks if they're continuously provided with the vast amounts of warp energy to fuel their materialisation. However, all daemons not bound to something in the material world will sooner or later be sucked back into the warp, usually sooner rather than later. This is why many daemons prefer to possess a mortal host; while this weakens their powers, it also makes them able to stay in our dimension until their host is destroyed. The same goes for daemon princes, who also have a mortal body containing an immortalised soul.Originally Posted by LordLinkAs others have said, it depends both on the strength of the sorcerer and of the daemon. Most sorcerers can probably bind a weak daemon into a weapon or other artefact, but the daemon won't be able to imbue the weapon with any noteworthy Chaos-fuelled powers or special abilities. Most standard Chaos weaponry actually seems to be inhabited by weak daemons that do little else than warp the weapons in a suitably frightening fashion so they appear scarier; however, it takes a much stronger sorcerer and a much stronger daemon to create a true daemon-weapon, and usually the daemon isn't all that interested in being bound into a weapon in the first place.Originally Posted by LordLinkYes, daemons can be killed if their warp forms are destroyed; however, it takes another daemon or a sorcerer much stronger than themselves to actually do it. Knowing the daemon's true name is a great help in this regard, and the Chaos Gods often punish unsuccessful daemons by revealing their true name to their fellow daemons who love nothing more than to eliminate unwanted competition. Powerful artefacts can also be used to destroy a daemon; the Inquisitor Eisenhorn once used such an artefact to boost his own considerable psychic powers and thereby managed to kill a lesser daemon trapped inside a host. One should note that this was a lesser daemon already weakened by the bonds trapping it in the material realm; killing a greater daemon would probably take a Primarch or a god.Originally Posted by LordLink
However, I would just like to point out that a C'Tan can not kill a daemon. C'Tan are in fact very vulnerable to daemonic attacks because they have no psychic defences at all, nor any psychic powers with which to kill a daemon's spirit in the warp. The warp is anathema to the C'Tan, as stated in the Necron Codex. The C'Tan way to battle daemons is to prevent them from materialising in the first place, which is why they create Pariahs and Pylons to separate the Materium from the Immaterium.Titans vary a lot in size from the smallest, the Warhound, which is 20 metres tall, to the tallest, the Emperor class, which is up to 100 metres tall. The size of the crew also varies; a Warhound requires only a Princeps to control it, while other Titans usually have at least four crew members, the most important being the Princeps, the Moderati who controls the Titan’s weapons, the tactical officer, and the chief engineer. Most of the Titan’s weapons and machinery are controlled by mindless servitors. The Titans are maintained and usually also transported by the Adeptus Mechanicus, who take very good care of them indeed, and all members of a Titan crew are trained by the Mechanicus too.Originally Posted by LordLink
Also, as Sabe says, Titans are very odd machines in that they appear to be at least semi-conscious. Although the Princeps usually controls them, the Titan actually has a spirit and a will of its own composed of the collective psi-imprints of all its previous Principes. This makes the Titan somewhat difficult to transport; most non-Mechanicus starship captains, military and civilian alike, dislike transporting Titans because the Titans are notorious for not appreciating the confinement of starship transportation. Also, according to Princeps Hekate, they have a tendency to move when they dream (!), which is less fortunate in a confined space such as a starship in transit. The Tech Priests therefore spend much time on calming rituals when transporting Titans.Berny Mac’s explanation of the warp and the Chaos Gods is not entirely satisfactory in my opinion, but I won’t start ranting on that here. To answer your question, no, the Chaos Gods are not in control of all daemons; however, they do control the most powerful daemons because all other Warp Gods have been driven away or consumed by the Ruinous Four and therefore can’t create any daemons of their own.Originally Posted by LordLink
The daemons not controlled by the Chaos Gods are lesser daemons, and most of them are just mindless warp creatures that prey on lost souls and unprotected psykers with no greater plan in mind. When the Geller Field around a ship in the warp fails, these are the daemons that will usually materialise and start a mindless killing spree; they have been described in a number of Black Library books and short stories, and their mindless predatory nature is often compared to that of sharks. However, according to the old fluff it is actually also possible to find warp entities that are not evil; although, judging by their complete lack of existence in the Black Library fluff, they’re either now obsolete or just extremely rare.
Last edited by Grephaun; February 9th, 2006 at 14:12.
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To Grephaun: I agree my explanation wasn't entirely satisfactory I was trying to condense several years worth of cumulated background knowledge produced by GW into a couple of paragraphs. Much of the material on chaos is unexplained or has been replaced, while other pieces haven't been replaced but have never been repeated by GW.
Concerning Titans: I believe the crew of Titans do control it to a certain extent but there is a delicate balance between their influence in operating weaponry etc and the Titans own "spirit AI or whatever it is (this topic has been much discussed in a different thread). Once again material on Titans varies on how exactly they work. The only conclusion we can draw from this really is that there are hundreds of variations of their operating systems working in different ways.
I would say the Emperor Class titan is bigger than 100m. Again the scale varies in pictures models and discriptions.
What I need to know for my fluff is that Lieutenant Vein and his chosen have just killed a powerful demon intent on hunting and killing Vein. The demon would return to the warp like it always does and continue to hunt Vein but sorcerer Fey uses his psychic powers to delay the demons return to the warp. Vein takes the demons body/warp essence to a sorcerer powerful enough to bind the demon to a daemon weapon.
Is this scene feasible? i want to know if Fey could delay the demon in time to transport its corpse (or warp essence if they don't leave a corpse) to a powerful sorcerer who binds it to a dreadaxe.
Yes that scene is very feasible (and kind of cool by the way). remmebmber though that the deamon first would have to be bound where the material world meets the immaterial world i.e real space meets the warp so the eye of terror basically.
Secondly the deamon would be extremely p****d off at being bound and used by its enemy (more so than a normal bound demon weapon) The Lieutenant would be taking a BIG risk in using such a weapon.
I like the idea though.