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This is basically a big barrel of questions that I have about Chaos and how it ticks, so I'm going to just chuck them at you quiz-style and hope it's not too obnoxious to reply to
1. How does Chaos work exactly? I know it's something to do with the emotions of Mankind becoming tangible consciousnesses within the Immaterium, but what exactly IS the Immaterium? Is it just another dimension of reality, or is it a seperate plane of existence?
2. Were the Chaos Gods in existence at the beginning of Creation like the C'Tan, or did they just suddenly appear somehow?
3. How does the relationship between the Traitor Legions and the Chaos Gods work? I know some of them are fairly obvious (World Eaters = Khorne, Death Guard = Nurgle, Emperor's Children = Slaanesh), but are they dead-set in their worship or would they be willing to trade their allegiances to whoever is giving out the nattiest mutations? If they're totally devoted then would they ever cooperate, i.e would you see Death Guard and World Eaters Marines cooperating to destroy an Imperial system? If they did, would they be able to let their daemons loose on the same battlefield without having them eat each other?
4. What exactly is Chaos Undivided?
5. Some of the Legions' gods are obvious, but some of them are quite obscure; for example the Night Lords, they enjoy sowing terror which points to Slaaneshi leanings, however they're also brutal, senseless killers, which is Khornate. Wassup wit' dat? Is there a list of the allegiance of all the different Traitor Legions somewhere, or do those who aren't obviously connected just get blessed by whoever gets to them first?
6. Where are the Traitor Primarchs?
7. If Chaos is so eternal and all that stands between them and the Imperium is an Imperial Guard regiment, why not just storm out of the Eye of Terror, kick the Cadians to bits and lay waste to the whole entire galaxy?
8. Last one I promise . How do the Tau and Dark Eldar react to Chaos? The Eldar don't like 'em, the Necrons don't know about 'em, the Tyranids eat things and the Orks smash things (although DoW seems to suggest the Orks will help them out if they get rewarded with a big fight). Are the DE actually Chaotic themselves, or are they just depraved as a result of fighting off Chaos and would be as willing as anyone to see it get smushed? Would the Tau know what a Chaos force was if they saw one, or would they send their Water castes out to try and hand out pamphlets to Berzerkers?
That's pretty much it. I figure if I'm going to play the Inquisition and try and write fluff for them, I might as well try and get some understanding of the opposition beyond "They Are Baddies".
As for Questions one and two sources differ old school official fluff details this quite extensivly more recently GW hasn't mentioned it much, whether this is because they have changed the background or merely want to keep it secret is a matter of debate.
In terms of the older and clearer background this is it. The Immaterium or Warp is another dimension that overlaps with our own. Every living creaturers (including plants) soul is represented in the warp. Souls which are alike band together hence warriors souls will begin to flock together and even merge. The Choas gods represent the accumulated souls of millions and millions of beings sharing common desires.
The chaos gods weren't in existance at the begining of creation Slaneesh was created for example because of the hedonistic lifestyles of the eldar presumably similar occurances created the other choas gods billions of years ago.
3) The relationship between the chaos legions and their gods is fairly absolute, so a deathguard would never become a worshiper of Khorne. However the Legions may help each other if it served a common goal. (note the rivalry between certain gods Khorne and Slanneesh may prevent this) Deamons are more intelligent than they seem so wouldn't kill each other unles their god wanted it.
4)Choas undevided can be seen in two ways (i) Worshipping a minor chaos entity or deamon prince that doesn't grant as much power as one of the Four Great Chaos Powers. or (ii) Worshipping all the chaos powers as the true pantheon of human endevour and emotion.
5)Not all the chaos Legions or the space marines within the Legions worship gods and others worship chaos undevided. The Nightlords genrally don't worship the chaos gods hence their tendencies aren't absolute.
6)Some of the Traitor Primarchs are dead: Alpharious and Horus. The others have become Deamon Princes and rarely venture outside the Eye of Terror (there are exceptions such as Angron who who attacked Armageddon and was sebsequently been banished back to the warp)
7)Who knows prehaps they will? The main answer though would be the deamons don't have enough power away from the Eye for a prolonged campaign and the chaos Legions aren't numerous enough.
8 ) Not enitrly sure though I would imagine the Tau would be fairly hostile if they learnt of the true nature of chaos. The Dark eldar I belive hate and fear chaos as much as the Craftlworld eldar do.
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I will attempt to answer what i can( bear in mind im no fluff master).
1. I think its a alternate dimension.
4.Its the worship of chaos as a whole not just a particuler aspect.
5.As for the Night Lords it says in index astartes they do not worship choas
but just use it for terror or something like that.
6.I think some are lost, killed or based on their own deamon worlds.
7.Well that would just mess up the game , wouldnt it?
8,I think they treat them just as a normal enemy IMO.
Handing peace pamphelets to Bezerkers etc.
Dont take anything i say to seriosly because i am no chaos expert.
as for question 7.
Chaos just can't bear that much space vessels in combat. During the 13th black crusade the chaos armies where defeated in space. When engaging in ground combat the won every single time. Chaos only had 10 battlebarge if I am right. The Adeptus Astartes have 23 alone.
So image your on a planet, just conquered it and want to move further. But you are unable to do that because all your vessels are either destroyed or unable to move further to another planet.
DonÂ´t mess with the dicegod
Not true, I'm afraid.Originally Posted by dicegod
Battlebarges did not exist at the time the traitor legions turned to Chaos. Instead, there were huge fleets of ships attached to each legion, who turned with them. Also, some ships, like the Planet Killer, were designed and built within the eye of terror after the heresy (the warped physics are actually quite advantageous in this respect.)
The Adeptus Astartes have far more than 23 battlebarges as well, I believe. There are 1000 chapters, and each probably has at least one, if not two or three.
As for why chaos hasn't just marched over everyone yet. Well, they can only leave the eye en masse at one particular point without it being highly dangerous, so the Imperials have just massed an impossible amount of military and naval hardware at the Cadian gate. Chaos has a nearly limitless supply of mutants, but Cadia has a nearly limitless supply of guardsmen, so, while it's costly, the two pretty much cancel one another out.
I'd advise you, if you're writing Inquisition fluff, to avoid casting Chaos Marines as the baddies. It doesn't work, because generally a single chaos marine could probably send any inquisitor and his retinue back to Terra in very small crates.
Last edited by The_Giant_Mantis; April 1st, 2006 at 17:45.
Thanks for the replies In respect to the Legions and the Gods then, would it be possible to have a contingent of Alpha Legion Marines who aren't particularly kept-up on the old daemon worship, or would they have to worship SOMETHING to avoid being slapped about by the Warp-spawn? I really like the Alpha Legion's back-story and characterisation, plus I think after I finish my DH/ Inquisition army I'd like to go for them (or possibly the Night Lords) as my second army, so I want to write them into the fluff for my DH lists.
I really don't think you can turn back from Chaos, even in a Darth Vader fashion when you're about to die. Once you start worshipping chaos, your body and mind alters to accomodate it.Originally Posted by Heathen
Besides, it'd be like experiencing a taste of incredible power, immortality and enlightenment, then deciding you were going to go back to being a sheep.
If you're going to use alpha legion marines in your inquisition fluff, my only advice is to make it one marine leading a horde of cultists and make him the abseloute fight of the inquisitor's life. Look at the Inquisitor game for a realistic apparaisal of chaos marine abilities. In inquisitor, a normal marine can take down an entire warband without blinking. A chaos marine, with the blessing of the dark gods and 10,000 years experience, is off the scale in terms of power levels.
By the way, the answer to question 8 is that the Tau know abseloutely nothing about chaos, but they despise what little they've seen of it. For them, the behaviour of chaos worshippers represents all the selfish and barbaric instincts the Etherials taught them to hate. The Dark Eldar hate and fear chaos even more than the craftworlders do, yet in a way they're forced into a wierd servitude to it by the fact that they need to harvest souls for Slannesh or they wither and die.
Last edited by The_Giant_Mantis; April 1st, 2006 at 20:27.
I'm not saying I want the Alpha Legion to repent their crimes and beg forgiveness from the Imperium; they're supposed to be the adversaries of my Inquisitor Lord, with one particular Chaos Lord being the bane of his life. The Moriarti to his Holmes if you will . Without going into too much detail, the Lord in command of the Alpha Legion Marines is trying to release one of Tzeench's big bad daemons from an artefact hidden on one of the worlds the Inquisitor Lord is watching over, in the hope that he can become a Daemon Prince and kick the heads off both my =][= and the Grey Knights Grand Master, both of whom have sent him packing in the past. The Imperium knows the artefact is there and has got the planet guarded pretty well, so the Chaos Lord uses his sneakyness to rekindle an old Slaaneshi cult that prevailed on the sub-sector's worlds in ancient times, using the chaos they create to try and get hold of the artefact. What I want to know is would the Alpha Legion Marines ever actually give their allegiance to one of the Chaos Gods? From everything I've read they don't seem to worship anything, which is both a pro and a con; pro because it means I'm free to speculate about them turning to Tzeench, and con because if they don't currently worship anything and they're still kicking tail, what would be the need for them to worship ANYTHING?
Also with regard to the point about CSMs being hard as nails, my =][= is an =][= Lord who has a load of Grey Knights with him wherever he goes. Inquisitor Lords and Grey Knights punch the heads off Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes for a living, so I doubt there'd be any need to scale down the number of CSMs to make it feasible; and besides, who said the Inquisition are going to win this one?
I'll answer some of the ones that haven't already been covered very well.Khorne and Slaanesh were both created well after the beginning of time, though the origins of Tzeentch and Nurgle remain a mystery. You can argue that they were present at the beginning because of what they represent, but at the same time decay and change will happen whether they are there or not. So its kinda a question of a chicken and an egg.2. Were the Chaos Gods in existence at the beginning of Creation like the C'Tan, or did they just suddenly appear somehow?Horus-Killed by the Emperor6. Where are the Traitor Primarchs?
Alpharius-Reported killed by Guillman
Konrad Curze-Killed by Callidus assasin.
Angron- Daemon prince, has ventured from the eye before and been banished back.
Mortarion- Daemon prince, stays on his own world within the eye.
Magnus- Daemon prince, has ventured from the eye and been banished back.
Fulgrim- Daemon prince, has been elusive of the imperials last 10k years.
Peturabo- Last daemon primarch, rules over a world within the eye
Lorgar- Reported to be living within the eye, daemon prince.A) The cadian gate is all that stands between them and the imperium, but the imperium itself beyond the cadian gate is not defenseless, the traitor marines cannot wage war that far from the eye with much conviction. There's a lot more than the imperials standing in the way of them "laying waste to the galaxy"7. If Chaos is so eternal and all that stands between them and the Imperium is an Imperial Guard regiment, why not just storm out of the Eye of Terror, kick the Cadians to bits and lay waste to the whole entire galaxy?Tau- Limited knowledge, just see them as one more race that won't submit to their will. They have dealt with them before, and know better than to try peaceful approaches.8. Last one I promise . How do the Tau and Dark Eldar react to Chaos? The Eldar don't like 'em, the Necrons don't know about 'em, the Tyranids eat things and the Orks smash things (although DoW seems to suggest the Orks will help them out if they get rewarded with a big fight). Are the DE actually Chaotic themselves, or are they just depraved as a result of fighting off Chaos and would be as willing as anyone to see it get smushed? Would the Tau know what a Chaos force was if they saw one, or would they send their Water castes out to try and hand out pamphlets to Berzerkers?
DE- Live under much the same circumstances as normal eldar, though they play it safer in that they stay well away from psychic powers.
Necrons- the necrons likely know more about chaos and its history than any other race in the galaxy, just thought you should know.
Nids- Don't care much for chaos and it has little effect on them as their hive fleets distrupt the warp enough that they can feel relatively safe from things like daemons most of the time.
Orks- fight for, fight against. They really don't pick a side.
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Okay, the grey knights make more sense.Originally Posted by Heathen
But remember there are not that many Alpha Legionaires in existence. If 50 of them die in your fluff, you've just wiped out a fairly sizable percentage of their total strength in one day. If it was that easy, the Imperium would have no problem.
Chaos marines don't stand around waiting to be attacked by elite Imperial forces either, especially grey knights. That's what cultists do. Chaos marines are the elite shock troops who are only deployed when the battle is critical and then, they are deployed where the enemy is weakest and they have the greatest advantage.
This is going to be especially true of alpha legionaires, who have exceptional flexibility and intelligence gathering abilities, as well as an exceptionally keen grasp of tactics. Going toe to toe with grey knights = bad tactics. Putting cultists in their way to bog them down then attacking other Imperial forces = good tactics.
Even Inquisitor lords are really not that powerful compared to CSM. They're only human.
Last edited by The_Giant_Mantis; April 2nd, 2006 at 12:15.