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I just wanted to post my concept for a Lamenters army, based on the fluff i have read and the imagery I have of them. Now I don't actually possess a codex yet, so this is a loose work in progress...but feel free to flame me or hurl abuse as you please
As some people will know the Lamenters are reputed to be one of the chapters that was created as part of the cursed founding, and since that date they have been plagued with bad luck - they joined the wrong side of the Badab uprising, beaten up a little and got told to go on a penitent crusade, as they had been naughty little marines. now as they were on there jolly across the segmentum, they got stopped by some big nasty bugs part of Hive Fleet Kraken (sorry to all you fluff experts out there who already know this but I am attempting to enlighten the masses here, and as a result of this encounter, their numbers were decimated. Reports vary, with some saying that the Chapter was wiped out, to others that indicate up to 320 marines survived.
I plan on building the remanants of this chapter, and sticking to quite strict limits, as follows:
No tanks, possible exception 1/2 rhinos - Devestator Transport? (the Tyranids ate 'em all)
>No heavy weapons for tactical squads - numerous heavy weapons were lost in the wake of the retreat from hive fleet kraken, and as such those that remain are now sole property of Devestators (of which there will be a 0-1 limit)
>Limited Terminator Armour..not sure what form this will take yet, potentially reserved for one I.C and 0-1 Termies on FOC
>No plasma guns/cannons. Limited pistols. I personally think plasma weapons are far too common place in the universe, considering how hard it is too manufacture them (apparently) - this limit reflects the losses in weapons as a consequence of Kraken, and subsequent diffuculty in replacing said weapons.
>Possible heavy emphasis upon Assault marines and Bikers - these units were fast enough to evade/escape much of the massacre unlike slower battle brothers.
>1/2+ Choices for scouts, reflecting the attempt at rebuilding the Chapter with high levels of fresh intake
>Mandatory Apothecary in any command squad to show the unwillingness to lose anymore gene seed, when the chapters strength is so low.
In my mind, the Lamenters forces that will deploy to battle will deploy largely out of drop pods (anyone remember the story in white dwarf?) and advance mercilessly with bolters blazing. I believe there is a trait that allowes tac squads to take 2 special weapons, so will take advantage of this though no plasmas remember... The remanents of the Chapter are few but largley higley trained and experienced. I will use large tactical squads to reflect the lack of many specialised marines, with different squad and company markins to reflect the amalgamation of what was left after the Tyrannids had finished breakfast.
I am also considering the use of Ultramarines Tyranid hunters converted to be used as veteran marines, and the trait of favoured enemy or something (sorry for my lack of knowledge, but as i said i dont have the codex)
I'm also contemplating buying a couple of boxes of Iron hands, and mixing up the bionics throughout the squads to show high level of injury and subsequent replacements of the marines- any views?
Anyway, well done if you managed to stick through this, i appreciate anyones views or interpretations of what the Lamenters should be like (especially if you already play them
Cheers in Advance. and sorry about the length again.
Generally nice ideas.. but, if I remember correctly, the initial massacre by the minotaurs which is what killed off the majority of the chapter took place in space on the Lamenters own ships, so the fast units won't have been any use there.
Remember that the Lamenters are cursed, and they know it as well.. I'm not sure they are allowed to recruit, given that they're already penitent, but even if they could, they might not want to given the knowledge that they're all doomed anyway. Therefore, I think the scout argument is out.
Whilst they were originally attacked by the Minotaurs in space, and did incur heavy losses, this was prior to the penitent crusade and losses at the hands of Tyrannids, and no source actually states just how many men were lost, and as such I am taken a bit of a liberty here. Now a space battle would mean that no fast attack units would be deployed and as such would remain intact, so i believe that this could route is still viable?? Please correct me if I am wrongGenerally nice ideas.. but, if I remember correctly, the initial massacre by the minotaurs which is what killed off the majority of the chapter took place in space on the Lamenters own ships, so the fast units won't have been any use thereAhh, a very valid point, and one that i had not considered. Whilst I can see where you are coming from, I personally disagree. The point of a penitent crusade (and this is in my mind only) is partly a show of subservience, especially so in the case of the Lamenters (yes we joined the wrong side, look we will do what you say to make you believe we didn't mean it). Now as far as I can make out no fluff states that penitent chapters can't take onboard new recruits, as to do so would be pure folly? The possibility of a loss of a chapter and all its gene-seed and armaments does not make any sense to me.Remember that the Lamenters are cursed, and they know it as well.. I'm not sure they are allowed to recruit, given that they're already penitent, but even if they could, they might not want to given the knowledge that they're all doomed anyway. Therefore, I think the scout argument is out.
I can see what you mean by the concept as accepting their doom as inevitable, yet again, as a matter of personal preference I do not think they would just roll over and die. They wish to server the Emperor, for if they did not they would have turned to Chaos or refused the penitent crusade etc. I personally like the concept that the Chapter is trying to rebuild, in the hope that if they fight the hardest and are actively 'good' then somehow they will wipe the slate clean, and purge any memories of the time they were 'cursed'. The concept of just allowing a Chapter to die out because they are allegedly 'cursed' seems nonsensical. To the Blood Angels just give in? 'oh Dante, give over, we are all doomed!'
As i say, these are all just my personal views on fluff, and the army i think that would be interesting to play with.
The stuff on the Badab war claims the chapter lost most of its marines fighting the minotaurs. It wasn't a calculated battle, they were ambushed and boarded.. therefore they won't have had a choice about what to deploy.Originally Posted by TheIronDukeI do remember reading that that's part of what a penitent crusade is. Your homeworld is reasigned to a more deserving chapter, and you are not allowed to recruit until the crusade is over. It is therefore a trial as much as an act of penance. If you don't get through intact, obviously you weren't penitent enough.Originally Posted by TheIronDuke
Wish I could remember where I read it though.. anyone else?But they are actually cursed.. they are constantly surrounded by a palatable aura of doom and misery. It's part of their mutation, and any being who sees them fight in battle will be aware of it.Originally Posted by TheIronDuke
Last edited by The_Giant_Mantis; June 9th, 2006 at 13:45.
OK, disclaimer first, when it comes to fluff I have a tendency to get everything totally wrong, so bear with me.
Aren't the Black Templars also on a crusade? and don't they have heaps of neophytes? if they can't recruit where are all those neophytes coming from?
I have to agree with iron duke here, space marines are extremely precious. I find it hard to believe, cursed or not, that they would throw away an entire chapter. Much better to have them crusading around the galaxy gaining not only their honour back, but strength as well, as they recruit. The loss of a single citzen is nothing and the possible gain of marines, even cursed ones would hugely outweigh that. I just can't imagine that they would specifically stop a chapter from recruiting. They may as well have excommunicated or exterminated them.
"You challenge me knowing that I am Xiahou Dun!?"
That's a self-imposed crusade, not a penitent crusade.Originally Posted by Xiahou Dun
A penitent crusade is, as the name suggests, a punishment. The lamenters, basically, betrayed the Imperium.. most chapters who betray the Imperium aren't given the luxury of penance.
Last edited by The_Giant_Mantis; June 9th, 2006 at 13:46.
aren't they doing it as a form of penance?Originally Posted by The_Giant_Mantis
"You challenge me knowing that I am Xiahou Dun!?"
First of all let me saw that The Lamenters are my favourite space marine chapter. Their fluff is easily some of the best (but overlooked) in the game IMO. I am currently in the process of painting my first unit up.
Anyways on to the fluff question, while I do not know if chapters on penitent crusades are allowed to recuit or not,( but I will take Mantis's word for it, he seems to know what he is talking about ) I know myself that I am going to take at least two scout squads in my Lamenters army, like X Dun I find it hard to imagine a resource as valuable as a SM chapter would just be allowed die by the Imperium. For all we know the Lamenters could have "completed" their penitent in the eyes of the High lords of Terra, hell only about 300 of them surived the hive fleet max, and the Scythes even less.
I like some of your ideas Duke, its great to see someone putting a lot of thought into a very fluffy army. I have been looking at traits in the codex and some of them add some great character. I can't remember names but I especially like the one which let you take an apothercary in each squad, very fitting for a cursed founding chapter as well as one with very precious gene seed.
Keep it up I will be following this thread with great interest.
Last edited by chemicalcaveman; June 9th, 2006 at 14:38.
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Right, I have been reading more into what fluff I can find, and it seems to suggest that to stop a Chapter on a penitent crusade recruiting would ultimately be detrimental, considering there may be untold numbers of chapter on penitent crusades at any one time - The Lamenters werent the only chapter sent on a crusade after the Badab incident, the Mantis Legion and Executioners were also sent with the same task.
Now they were told to embark upon a crusade in 912 M41, and hit Hive Fleet Kraken in 992 M41, which is 80 years on Crusade. Think of the conflicts a chapter would be involved in in that time, especially if they were looking for forgiveness - they would deliberately engage in the toughtest conflicts to prove their worth!? In my mind, very few Marines would survive such a long quest without fresh intake, cursed or not.
The third war for Armageddon was placed in 999 M41, and whilst i don't personally know what the supposed date is in the 41st millenium (any help here, or is 999 the current date?), it seems that the Lamenters are approaching the latter stages of their crusade. When there is said to be less one marine for each plant in the Imperium, the loss or refusal to permit recruitment is just, well daft to me!
Edit : Just reading what Chemicalcaveman wrote (I'm sorry i seemed to have missed your post!) The traits i am thinking of are "Cleanse and Purify" to allow 2 special weapons, as well as obviously "Suffer not the Alien to Live".
I can see your point with an Apothecary in each unit, yet to me, the concept of SO many apothecaries surviving when the chapter suffered such heavy losses in evry other sector seems slightly implausible? I consider that the would be severely depleted in terms of Apothecaries as well, as a high proportion were lost (with equipment) trying to salvage the gene seed from fallen battle brothers? Any views on this?
I am also thinking of using religious imagery to an extent (please dont scoff), in the form of names and symbols - it will be fairly subtle. This will take the form of naming the current chapter master / head chaplain man Jude/Thaddeus. St Jude Thaddeus is the Patron Saint of lost causes, which i feel is rather fitting with the fluff of the chapter, and i will convert a lot of the army's power weapons to power axes/halberds, as this weapon was synonomous with the saint. I also may like to paint the chapter banner to reflect this with the outline of a man, with a bleeding heart and crossed halberds / axes, and also crying, to reflect the fluff about the Sisters etc.
Please reply with your views on my interpretations of this, Cheers
Last edited by TheIronDuke; June 9th, 2006 at 14:59.
I was bit tied up with the fluff quesiton before so I forgot to say that I really like the ideas you have here.
The scouts are definitely a cool idea, if fluff doesn't permit a penitent chapter to recruit you can say that the lamenters have finished their crusade (as you said) and have started to recruit again.
I also think you should have apothecaries, I don't know how rare they are but I imagine that if some of them got killed all it would take is training for them to be replaced. It's not like plasma weapons or terminator armour which they simply can't replace, at least not without great difficulty. Also I believe that they would be of particular importance to this chapter. Not only do they have such few numbers, and so cannot afford losses, but they also have a cursed geneseed which I think would require the attention of more apothecaries when making new marines.
I'm not sure whether suffer not the alien to live is what you should us for the lamenters, yes they were almost wiped out by tyranids, but that doesn't mean that they're any better at fighting them, or that they haven't actually spent more time fighting other enemies that aren't in the official fluff. If it were me I would take purity above all (the trait that allows you to have an apothecary in each squad) instead.
I'm also not sure whether having more fast attack units makes sense. Yes, it is possible that they were the ones that would have been fast enough to escape the slaughter. But it is also possible that because they were fast they were the first ones to get to the fighting in the first place, and as such took heavier losses. And that the more defensively positioned marines were the ones who were able to survive until transports came to extract them.
That's all I can think of for now. I'l be interested to see how this army turns out.
"You challenge me knowing that I am Xiahou Dun!?"