Faith v.s. Daemons - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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    Faith v.s. Daemons

    Ok so we all know that faith is supposed to be the greatest weapon against daemons. Specifically it seems faith in the Emperor: but heres my question: why?

    Why is it that a person with strong enough faith can do more damage to a daemon than a SM with a bolter.

    Why is it that and Anointed weapon can kill a Greater Daemon (ok a very STRONG weapon) when it takes whole battle ship cannons just to slow a Greater daemon down.

    Why is it that in the Daemonhunter codex one of the psychic powers isn't psychic at all but based on faith and runes?

    And that brings me to another question: why are certain oils, unguents and runes inimical to warp spawn?

    Any help is much appreciated!

    Salus


    Note: if this thread is to closely related to similair threads on this board, would any mods please move this thread where it need be, Thx


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  3. #2
    Has a monkey! Imperialis_Dominatus's Avatar
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    Because faith isn't on the level of weapons of any sort. It isn't comparable to them; it's a different concept, a new way of fighting if you will. Faith is like a weapon that can only be used on a few select enemies, but is very powerful against them. Also, holy water and unguents are either a) really blessed by the Emperor himself, or b) serve as foci for latent psychic power.

    Also, daemons are on a different level. They are formed of Warp energy: feelings and emotions given raw form. Opposing thoughts and emotions have a detrimental effect on them.

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    Because faith in 40K is different to faith in 2K. Faith now is a bit of praying every night and sleeping at a different place on Sundays (no offense to anyone). In 40K all of your emotions are magnified and turned into energy in the warp. Just as the dark side of human emotions create daemons, absolute belief in their inferiority destroys them.

    Faith itself does not kill the daemon. The minor psychic power found in all humans are magnified when you believe enough. If you believe in blood shed you summon Bloodletters; if you believe in the Emperor you add power to your attack. It's just like faith making your chainsword into a force weapon, in a miniature scale, smaller than the little plastic men we play with.. :shifty:

    Normally this is impossible as most IG fight more for their own survival and out of command. For brainwashed SoB they can use their minds to this purpose. SMs can do it as well, but since they are organical machines of doom and create so much bloodshed that the effect cancel out.


    Some of the runes, oils and anointed weapons work in the same way as faith does. They lock up psychic energy. Daemons are weak against "positive" warp energies, and when two opposites meet the law of physics come to place and they nullify each other. Just happen to be the case that the runes etc. lock more energy than the Daemon does.

    Hope that clears up.
    Last edited by Sergeant Tanthius; December 16th, 2006 at 11:13.

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    Has a monkey! Imperialis_Dominatus's Avatar
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    So does that mean a Culexus or Untouchable would have a hard time with a Daemon (at least killing it)? Having no soul, and thus no psychic power, and all.

    Course, a daemon would likely have a certain anathema towards an untouchable, so it might cancel out a little.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Imperialis_Dominatus View Post
    So does that mean a Culexus or Untouchable would have a hard time with a Daemon (at least killing it)? Having no soul, and thus no psychic power, and all.

    Course, a daemon would likely have a certain anathema towards an untouchable, so it might cancel out a little.
    Ummm...I suppose it will work this way.

    Faith, good will = +1 (Or +394209842423402934 if they are a group of SoB vets)
    Daemon, Chaos Gods = -1 (Or -308402184021 if they are Greater Daemons)

    (-1) + 1 = 0

    They nullify

    For souless ones it works differently.

    Souless = *0 or /0

    291048320948502938590283/0 = 0
    9432802384029384 * 0 = 0

    Obviously both Daemons and Imperial weapons can hurt Souless things, since all three are material to some extent.

    Here's more maths

    Souless = 100% Material, 0% Warp
    Imperial faith = 1% Warp, 99% Material
    Eldar = 50-50
    Tau = 0.00000000000001% warp, 99.99999999999999% material
    True Daemons = 100% warp
    Summoned Daemon = 40-60, changes as it moves around the place.

    So souless things are 100% material, so Daemons cannot attack them with their full power, since their warp energy is useless until they transfer it to the real world, a process which takes up energy as well. A example will be our car making fuel into kinetic energy, but the conversion is not 1 : 1.

    As souless things attack daemons, they times it by 0, themselves. Daemons, originally a negative number, becomes 0, losing all its power, but since Souless things are 0 to start with, they lose nothing. Which solves the problem why Imperials using their faith against daemons drain energy, they don't, they just nullify each other and they one with energy left survives.

    Hope that works, comparing Warhammer 40K with real world physics and (my twisted) logic.

    *Collapses*

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    Ok so if I'm understanding this correctly then, the type of faith that hurts daemons in the
    40k universe is basically an individual believing that he is stronger or his chosen patron is stronger than any particular daemon and so this gives the little bit of psychic power that ,every human has, a bust and so he can in fact hurt the daemon with not only material realm weapons but warp weapons to... right.

    So does the effective power of the persons faith, or better put how much that persons faith can help them against daemons, have anything to do with the patron or deity that persons faith is based on.

    For instance lets say that you take a SoB and a person who doesn't believe in the Emperor or Chaos, but something completely different, but has equal faith to the SoB, would the SoB have greater effectiveness against the demonic or would they be the same level. (not taking into account the SoB training and all that, Strictly talking faith here,)

    Simply put faith is "positive" warp energy, if we must label things good and evil. The more faith you have the more "positive" warp energy is at your disposal to combat the "negative" energy that daemons are made of. Sergeant Tanthius put it well with his Mathematical equations, and I thank him for that, as well as all the rest of you for posting.

    All this brings up another question: if faith is a type of warp energy, since it is thought and emotion based, would a person using faith to combat a daemon be considered a psycher?

    Is that one of the reasons why GK are so effective against daemons: because not only are they potent psychers but they are also using Positive warp energy and not negative energy to fight negative energy. Much like using water to fight fire instead of fire to fight fire

    Any way hope that all made sense

    Salus

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    Wher dat naked blue chik? Jaffar_Hasad's Avatar
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    Think in terms of rock paper scissors. Rock beats scissors, scissors beats paper, and paper beats rock. In this way, Faith beats daemons, daemons beats bullets, bullets beats faith (but please do go around shooting priests).
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    The first thing is i don't think we should look at it as positive or negative. I will explain how I see it.

    First i think it is necessary to define a few things:

    Each person has a presence in the Warp. A very small presence but a presence non the less. (ignoring the pariah gene)

    A psyker works by channeling the warp through into the material universe to produce an effect. So a psyker might channel the warp through to produce a bolt of energy to strike down a foe.

    Faith is the belief in something, not necessarily a rational belief.

    The Emperor is a very powerful psyker.


    So now if we look at the concept of faith. This is a fine line that is being looked at the wrong side of by Sergeant Tanthius imho. Faith in itself can't protect you, it can save you from becoming tainted by Chaos but to reiterate the point
    "FAITH CANT PROTECT YOU!"

    I'm sure your all going "but surely this is wrong", "this person is mad", "he doesn't know what he is on about", "but surely the faith in the Emperor saves people".

    It isn't the faith that saves people. There are two main answer to what is saving the people. Think about an Ork their latent psychic abilities work by them believing in something so strongly that it happens. The way faith works is a bit like that. People believe so strongly that the Emperor is going to protect them that they inadvertently use the psychic powers that all of humanity have the ability to use due to their presence in the warp. The other way is that the Emperor being as powerful as he is sees peoples faith in him and as such acts "through" them from Terra using his psychic abilities.

    So to summarise when people are protected by "faith" (note inverted commas) they are either using humanities natural psychic potential without realising, or the Emperor is intervening to help them.

    This is how i've always seen it and i mean no offence to Sergeant Tanthius with my comments saying he is wrong, i guess as is with all things of this nature it is how you see things.

    Regards,
    Gazboy

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    Warp energy is warp energy. Otherwise, it would be more logical to see the ancient enemies among the Dark Gods as eachother's opposites, meaning Khorne would have cancelled out a goodly portion of Slaanesh's already not-as-great-as-the-other-Gods power long ago. It's debatable as to whether pleasure and blood frenzy really equate as opposites, but Tzeentch and Nurgle would certainly no longer be fighting as they really ARE polar opposties - growth and ambition versus decay and despair. I even used to have this theory that Tau Ethereals are Tzeentchian... but I digress.

    You wouldn't have to be inadvertantly using psychic powers to defeat your foes. Faith in the Emperor, and belief that you'll survive the storm of Chaos, is manifested in the Warp just as much as the hatred and fury that create Bloodletters, the lust and perversion behind Daemonettes, the desperation and hopelessness behind Plaguebearers etc. Then again, faith in the Emperor would only serve to increase the power of the Emperor, since he's pretty much a warp entity now. But really, since man has the slightest influence on the Warp, an individual's faith might not help but the faith of a highly-trained and indoctrinated bunch of fanatical zealots (e.g. the Sisters, the Grey Knights) would easily be enough to topple all but the strongest daemonic servants of Chaos.

    Never forget that the Warp is a physical property in 40K, and therefore everything you feel is a physical property that will come up if Chaos is involved, whether you're joining in its glory or daring to stand against it. Not for nothing do the Alpha Legion use Daemons only when they've secured a lot of locals who believe in Chaos...

  11. #10
    Son of LO The_Giant_Mantis's Avatar
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    The simple answer is that it's a narrative device.. It has nothing to do with metaphysics or quasi-science and everything to do with making a cool storyline.

    In western culture (and indeed most cultures) exorcism and warding has always taken the form of theurgic ritual (i.e. a prayer/ritual/spell designed to invoke the power of God in the material world.) So GW obviously borrowed on this cool part of Western religious culture and transposed into 40k. It doesn't need an explanation, it looks cool.

    On a more serious note.. I think it's to do with the properties of daemons themselves. Daemons exist in a realm where thoughts and ideas matter more than physical objects. It makes sense that a chant or prayer or abseloute belief dedicated to their arch nemesis and ultimate enemy would hurt them more than simply being hit by a big sword.

    i.e. Faith hurts daemons because daemons fear and hate the Emperor, who was anathema to them. That fear is more real to them than any sword or gun.
    Last edited by The_Giant_Mantis; December 16th, 2006 at 22:58.

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