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I ran across an ongoing arguement in another forum that covered this very topic, and decided to go ahead and lay out all the facts for anyone here who was curious and to hopefully prevent a long and drawn out engagement filled with more morons pitching in their two cents, full of WRONG INFORMATION. The discussion eventually ran itself off topic with all the points being brought up and I will probably do much of the same if simply to try and make amends for the idiocy that was dsiplayed. Thank you in advance for your time.....
So to the question.
In a battle of Chaos Vs. C'tan who would win?
Khorne vs. Nightbringer
Slannesh vs. Void Dragon
Nurgle vs. Outsider
Tzeentch vs. Deciever
First I think I should point out for those who don't know that the Chaos Gods and the remaining C'tan are the anti-thesis of one another, the Chaos Gods being the dark masters of the immaterial realm and the C'tan of the material.
The first arguement given was that it depended on where the battle took place, C'tan winning in the material, Chaos vice versa. Then an individual tried to bring up the fact that seeing as how the warp, the very essence of chaos, is anathema to the C'tan that Chaos would obviously win no matter where the battle took place, but forgetting that similarly the material is the quote unquote "kryptonite" of chaos therefore negating each other. Another point brought up was that the C'tan couldn't enter the immaterium due it being the antithesis of their very being therefore canceling out the whole argument as to where decided who won, but this is simply untrue because it is recorded in eldar fluff that Kaela Mensha Khaine once fought Nightbringer but could not best him without the assitance of the Laughing God due to the fact that the Nightbringer could shift out of the material realm, proving that the C'tan can enter the warp (cause where else exsists in the fiction that he could phase to?), if only for short periods of time out of dire necessity.
Then the question was brought up, "seeing as the C'tan consume all living things for their energy, couldn't they just eat all of Humanity and deny Chaos the souls necessary to exsist?
No. While the destruction of the most numerous, and therefore most heavily relied upon of the Chaos gods for sustinence, race would greatly weaken them for a time, there are many other races that with Humanity gone could take over their niche in the galaxy and become the next source for chaos, much as the eldar were before Man took his current place of dominance in the galaxy.
From this point the discussion spiraled down hill from its original intention leaving the orginally posed question unanswered (though the most likely and logical truth is that the battle would never end, neither side being able to gain a true advantage), turning to questions like why the C'tan went dormant, why did they wake up, and where did the chaos gods come from, which I will answer in turn.
To explain the C'tan's reasoning for going into hibernation we must first examine all the happenings that led to it. The C'tan were engaged in a war with a now mythic race known only as the Old Ones for supremacy of the galaxy. The Old Ones created several warrior-races in an attempt to defeat the C'tan, including the Eldar. These warrior-races created an unexpected problem for the Old Ones, and the C'tan, their developing psychic abilities causing a rift between the material world and the Ether allowing an influx of all manner of hell-spawned nasties, most importantly the "Enslavers" or Krell. These creatures essentially destroyed the Old Ones civilization, and though they could not directly harm the C'tan they were killing everything else, which the C'tan used for food. This is known to the C'tan as the Enslaver Plague. To escape starvation the C'tan retreated to their tomb worlds and essentially went into stasis until the galaxy had repopulated.
As to the reasoning behind the C'tan awaking from their slumber, some suggested in the forum that it was due to life being at "critical mass" but the truth of it is that the awakening of these star gods is due to none other than Humanity itself, at least in the case of the Nightbringer, being one of the two currently active C'tan.
The formation of the Chaos Gods is relatively simple. Khorne was spawned from the very first hate-fueled blow and is sustained by violence, bloodshed, and unbridled hatred. Nurgle is simply the embodiment of death and decay, being created from nature itself even if depicted as some what malicious in his dealings. Tzeentch is born from the need of every creature to evolve and survive, to continue on by any means. Finally Slaanesh, along with the Eye Of Terror, was brought into creation by the collective psyche of the Eldar race and their decadence and debauchery at the time of The Fall.
Well I seem to have myself out, sorry for the bother, and thank you for your time.
This is, by neccesity, a difficult arguement. You're getting into the superman vs. etc. arguement that will always to with theoreticals and absolute statements. I, personnally, don't like to get into these arguements because they really can't be won. I think that a more productive arguement would be which of their servants could beat each other.
Reliant on Marines and Cultists for main forces.
Daemons, though renewable, aren't able to stay around forever.
As life gets wiped out of the galaxy choas will slowly run out of forces.
Choas gods can't manifest in the material world (that I know of.)
C'tan, though not actually gods, can manifest in the material universe and participate.
Necrons, as far as we know, can't actually be killed. In theory they will repare eventually, even if they do leave individual battles temporarily.
C'tan feed on life energy. Choas is the manifestation of life's darkside. C'tan may be able to feed off choas creatures (daemons) allowing them a food source all others are removed.
I'd say that in the end, Necrons would win the battle of attrittion. Without the ability to kill Necrons permanently (that I know) manifestable choas forces would eventually be eliminated, along with all other life. Without life, who summons more daemons? Necrons would control the material universe, the only one the Choas Gods seem to care about.
Last edited by Koss; March 6th, 2007 at 05:06. Reason: I'm an idiot
That is not dead which may eternal lie,
for in strange aeons even death may die.
You had to go and start the argument didnt you? Now this thread will drag on and on for WEEKS!
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I am going to have to agree. Chaos wins. If the nightbringer and deciever are just barely stronger than a greater deamon how can they hope to stand up to the actual chaotic entities?
That is not dead which may eternal lie,
for in strange aeons even death may die.
I agree, this is dangerous, but Schrivener Pontius has obviously given it some thought. However, we must be vigilant and guard ourselves against the warp spawned horrors of the flamewar..
Personally, I say neither wins.. They can't even fight one another directly, as they're based in entirely different universes each of which is anathema to the other. Although the C'tan evidently plan to seal off the warp from the material universe, they've had a good few billion years to do it and have made a pretty miserable job.. Similarly, the chaos gods are limited by the fundamental constraints of their limited presence in the material universe.
As for the C'tan halting chaos by killing off all life.. You're forgetting the billions upon billions of mutants and slaves in the eye of terror. That's a lot of believers and, if needs be, a lot of saccrifical victims to empower the gods.
Yes, there are potential twists.. Maybe the C'tan will finally work out how to seal off the warp.. But then again, Necrons need their tombs to regenerate.. There are potentially weapons in the chaos arsenal, such as the planet killer (if it ever gets rebuilt) and the blackstone fortresses which can physically destroy planets.. All in all, they pretty much seem to balance each other out.
What? Who wins? They can't ever fight. The C'Tan can't stand the Warp and the Chaos Gods can't exist in the material plane.
This is like asking if Earth-One Superman could beat Earth-Two Superman. Firstly, they're both Superman, and secondly, if they touch each other they'd probably destroy reality as we know it and everyone loses.
The above poster = Totally a member of the Fluff Masters Clan. Click here for fluff pwnage.
Come, sons of LO! Kneel before Poodle!
Mr_Wayne: "Some people believe that the World Eaters do not field any ranged weaponry. Those people often die at a distance."
GODDAMMIT! NO ONE ACTUALLY READ THE WHOLE FRICKIN POST! *twitchtwitch*
Though Mantis did get it mostly right. I was NOT opening up the topic for discussion I was simply trying to make up for the stupidity and droves of wrong information I saw posted on another forum.
librisrouge, no the Necrons are NOT INDESTRUCTABLE. Just very hard to destroy. C'tan CANNOT EAT WARP SPAWN!!!!!!! @#*$$@*!!#@$*$!!!! AAAAAHHHHHH! READ THEN SPEAK!
Ghost, I wasn't starting an arguement.
Frozencore, any noob should know that the game mechanics do not accurately reflect the fiction just from watching a Space Marine get dropped by a lasgun when the books are chocked full of examples of Marines getting shot with things like f'ing plasmaguns and getting back up. Just because the C'tan's stats don't match up to a Bloodthirster doesn't mean anything in the fluff.
Mantis, its not that the C'tan are doing a terrible job of sealing off the warp, theyve just been asleep for the past couple, I dont know, billion years? They havent had much time to finish their previous work.
No one ever reads, just start blabbing....
Schrivener Pontius, I've given you a warning for your inflammitory attitude. I know it can/is annoying if people don't reply the way you want. But if you could cut down on the "yelling" and "@#*$$@*!!#@$*" then I would appreciate it. Your new, so its all good, just try and be a little more calmer next time, ok?
Thanks, its appreciated.