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Alright, week 3 of the campaign is here. Played a new Space Marine player this week. He only had 1000 points, so it was interesting for me to look at what I consider the "core" of the list and only choose that. A year ago I probably would have left in my warp spiders, but I have become fond of my Starcannon Vypers, especially with all the marine players in the area.
His list was
10 Marines, flamer, missile launcher
Dev squad with 2 Missile Launchers, Plasma Cannon, Heavy Bolter
5 Assault Marines
My usual Farseer
My usual Jetbike squad
2 starcannon Vyper squads
3 Scatter Walkers
5 Dire Avengers
He won the roll to go first. Set looked like this:
He moved pretty much everything forward. Like most new Marine players he didn't use cover, and he would would soon meet my starcannons. I thought I was out of range of his Dev squad, but I was just in and thankfully only lost a single bike thanks to conceal.
I shuffled everything to get range and LoS on things. Doom failed, even on 3d6 pick the lowest Ld 10. That should have clued me in as to how my luck was going to be. I did everything I should and made sure the two squads I wanted dead each had two squads firing on them. Normally this works, but I rolled terribly for EVERY unit.
His scout runs, and I hop over the terrain for cover.
His assault marines land behind the terrain to hide from LoS. Rhino moves, marines on the left run, dread plods forward. Big Ordiance thing from his commander, it scatters and only hits a single bike, which makes his 5+ cover from conceal. That warlock is doing awesome at least. His Dev squad fires at my Vypers but do nothing thanks to cover. Hmm, well at least I am rolling awesome to keep my guys alive, even though poorly for everything else.
The Vypers on the left and walkers shuffle backwards. My bikes and right side Vypers hop over the terrain. My Dire Avengers shift an inch or two to the right. Vypers and walkers kill his small Tac squad, Vyper squad 2 finished off his Assault Marines, my DAs kill his last scout, and my bikes take the missile launcher off his Rhino.
I move my bikes to protect my Vypers.
His Dev squad and Dread combine to destroy one of my Vypers and Take the weapon and immobilize the other. The rhino fire it's storm bolter at my other Vyper squad, but does nothing.
Only fortune this time. I failed a psychic test twice in one game? Really unlikely, but it can't happen again...right?
Alright, so I should explain this next move, and why my bikes were out in the open last round so I could set this up. In our campaign they decided to have this "character point" system where you get bonus points every game for certain things you do. The thing is you character has to do them, not the squad. One of those things is "kill a vehicle."
Ok, back to the game. So I want to kill the rhino with my farseer (and to be guaranteed that means assault), but I also want to keep my Vypers safe with the cover save from the bikes. I move my Vypers up close to the rhino, but with a gap. My Vypers fire at his marines, along with my walkers, killing 4.
I now assault the rhino with my jetbike squad, moving them in around my Vypers for the 4+ cover. I destroy it, but it doesn't blow any bikes up.
His Dread, Dev squad(only rockets), and Rapid Firing marines all pour shots into my bikes. They do nothing.
I fail Doom AGAIN, this time perils of the warp! I am fine with ghosthelm. Vypers and bikes move around so the Vypers have clear LoS to his Marines. They both unload along with the walkers killing the squad and Pedro.
Jetbikes hop behind cover and in front of my Vypers. That's a 4+ for both of them.
The game went to turn 6, he finished of that lonely Vyper with his dread, and killed 1 more jetbike with his Dev squad. I pretty much just moved Fast with the Vypers and Turbo-Boosted with the Jetbikes (out of range of everything but the missiles) until it was over.
We talked a long time after the game was over about what he should have done, and what would make his list better. I posted it HERE, let me know what you guys think. It kept the theme he was originally building towards, but got lost along the way. I think that happens a lot with SM players, they see all the different options and get distracted. I really look forward to playing him next game with a list I helped build, that will be interesting.
Another massacre here put me way in front in the campaign I think. The black marine chapter is in second, and orks in 3rd.
Last edited by frozencore; March 26th, 2009 at 06:17.
Damm dude nice game you kicked some serious ass how did the game go for the other opponent. I would be pretty frustrated you totally ignored him and did your stuff and did it good .
I like how you use your list it's very interresting. I'm currently contemplating dropping my Fire Prism and take 2 extra vypers and give all4 vypers starcanons they are jsut funny against Space Marines
I hope that people check out that SM list and give some feedback . I tried to help him at different times during the game, but I could deffinately tell that he was getting frustrated. I'll admit the jetbike list IS a frustrating army to play against(with the speed and avoidance and deceptively tough troops), especially now that I know what I am doing more.
What I mean by Ignoring him is that he tried to force you to go over the left flank but you still went over the right flank (which was his weaker flank you good job spotting that) this forced him to walk a Long way with his dreadnought wasting valuable turns. You Also did I nice yob at creating your own little cover saves for your Vyper using the assault phase this is something I really have to remember when I will start playing
Further more you used your strong fire base on the Left flank to keep his force Busy so he wouldn't poor everything in to the right. This might have been something that just happened but it very useful for you because if he was able to get in CC with you he could hold you down a long time.
I have to say with all the terrain around it did help you a lot off course he also got some cover saves but only against the walkers shooting which is ok since they have loads of shooting anyways
as for your list being interesting I think I mentioned that in your last report. the combination of fast elements and cheap slow ones seem to make a nice mix for you to play with you seem to handle the firebase and Speed principles well in game. you are one of the last people that use the warwalkers in games and Non waveserpant Dire Avengers is also something rarely seen at games of more then 500 points.
I think that about raps it up, hope it's useful
Yes. For a jetbike army, like the one you are starting, you need to use your speed to your advantage because you don't have the firepower to take an enemy head-on. This means you must hit the side of their force. I don't always do this, but against most armies it works very well. That way your army is only fighting half of theirs at a time.
The Vyper cover trick helps so much, letting them live twice as long for their cheap points is almost a crime.
One more trick that I haven't used yet in my batreps works against fast melee centric armies. If you run the jetbikes and vypers net to each other, instead of jumping the bikes in front to give cover saves, you can jump your bikes behind the Vypers when you think you will be assaulted next turn. This can buy you a round to get your jetbikes out of there, as your opponent has to assault the vypers instead, and only hit on 6s. I hope that gives you an extra added trick if you play against orks and nids.
Placing a strong static firebase in the middle is a trick I learned from my SoB days, and have carried on to the Eldar. This has many uses.
First, being placed in the center allow them the maximum reach for their ranged weapons, letting them fire almost anywhere on the board. This then allows those units to be able to support my other units no matter which side they are on to make sure they get the killed to wipe things out.
Against a more static opponent, it allows me to split the field. If I use the firepower from my center unit on his center units, it essentially splits his army in two halves. This works best against IG, where their own units will be in the way for LoS. He will have a left side, a right side, and his middle will be destroyed or distracted by my middle. Which ever side I choose to attack will be left alone, as the only thing that could have supported them would have been the middle.
Against faster armies that can redeploy against you placing high damage units in the center and the fast things on the side it lets me cut down my enemy's movement as he tries to engage my fast moving models as he move across the board. He has to walk/drive his units across the board in front of my heavy fire. This gives him two basic options, he can either engage my center units delaying him long enough for my to counter, or he can ignore them in favor of getting rid of my attacking force and be whittled down along the way.
Those dire avengers are the cheapest scoring unit we can get, most of the time they never even get to fire, and if they do the couple kills they get are always helpful.
Now that I know what you are looking for I hope that this gives you some insight into my brain.
Last edited by frozencore; March 28th, 2009 at 22:08.
Thanks for the load out Core.
I have my first game today so this tricks are really going to help me a lot (only 500 points). I really admire how your are able to balance your playstyle around super fast units and the strong fire base elements without getting picked off. It's a great way to exploid the strenghts of both.
But the part about placing in the middle with your Firebase will get you some extreem amout of fire since you can hit allmoust the entire board means the can hit your models with all mosut their entire army aswell. But I guess that's not really an issue (since it's not a whole lot of points) and if they are shooting the walkers they are only giving your bikers more room to manouvre.
Overall great information and a great help thanks mate!!
I always use cover in the center to block LoS to my walkers and/or give them a 4+ save. You would be surprised how much an AV 10 unit can take when they have a 4+ cover save. It should be noted that most of the time when I place them in the center I do not plave them all the way forward (because they don't need to with 36"), which means only longer range weapons can hit them. Single shot anti-tank weapons are usually the only thing that can get a hit on them at that range and the cover save makes them pretty ineffective. That being said, I don't always put my walkers in the center, but in this game I did. It's all about guessing how things will play out when you deploy, and the 6" scout move before the game starts helps as well.
Last edited by frozencore; March 29th, 2009 at 18:52.
That was a fine battle report, very well illustrated and explained. Pretty one sided though. The opponent needs to learn some tactics.
Spambot kill tally. . .337
This was maybe his 3rd or 4th game I think. I have taken him under my wing after our battle and I hope to help him both with his list, and his tactics. If you have any advice on how to play space marines, or how he can alter or improve the new list I helped him build I would appreciate it, as I don't play marines myself.
Wish I could say, but I don't play loyalists cowards (traitor here). Actually, you might tell him not to divide his forces. Doing so allowed you to pick him off. Tell him that marines of all kinds function best in combined attacks. Rather general, I know...
Spambot kill tally. . .337