40K VWMkV - Round #6 - Battle #60 - Space Wolves versus Dark Angels - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    Now with STFU flames! Caluin's Avatar
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    708 (x8)

    40K VWMkV - Round #6 - Battle #60 - Space Wolves versus Dark Angels

    Please see this thread on how to participate in these games. I want to stress to everyone that the mission means everything. He who stands the best way to score Victory Points should be the winner. All missions have the Infiltration, Deep Strike, and Victory Points special rules.

    Mission Type - Seek and Destroy

    ***SPECIAL NOTE***
    Due to a fued, all close combat attacks by both armies will strike their opponents on a roll of 3+, regardless of the Weapon Skills. This only effects Close Combat, not shooting.
    ***SPECIAL NOTE***


    Death Cry Clan
    Space Wolves

    HQ: 332
    Elites: 102
    Troops: 928
    Fast Attack: 145
    Heavy Support:


    Wolf Guard Battle Leader Kosan Brenneka:
    Space Marine Bike; Belt of Russ; Frost Blade; Bolt Pistol; Frags

    Venerable Dreadnought Gweneira:
    Assault Cannon; Storm Bolter; Extra Armor; Drop Pod

    5x Wolf Scouts First Borns
    4x Bolt Pistols & CCW
    Wolf Guard Leader Kade Akin
    Power fist & Bolt Pistol

    9x Grey Hunters Death Rain:
    True Grit; 1x Meltagun; 2x Power Fist & Bolt Pistol; 6x Bolters & CCW; Drop pod

    9x Grey Hunters Red Fists:
    True Grit; 1x Meltagun; 2x Power Fist & Bolt Pistol; 6x Bolters & CCW; Drop pod

    9x Grey Hunters Fangs of Morkai:
    True Grit; 1x Meltagun; 2x Power Fist & Bolt Pistol; 6x Bolters & CCW; Drop pod

    9x Grey Hunters Shadow of Russ:
    True Grit; 1x Meltagun; 2x Power Fist & Bolt Pistol; 6x Bolters & CCW; Drop pod

    Land Speeder Tornado Gavran:
    Assault Cannon & Heavy Bolter

    Land Speeder Tornado Makani: 65
    Multi-Melta


    Tactics:
    The space wolves will likely go first; as they can re-roll the dice for first turn with the Venerable Dreadnought.

    Against the average opponent the bike HQ will boost; as far forward as possible; while staying out of LOS. His maximum movement range is 24 inches; so he should be able to stay out of LOS on any board; against any opponent.

    The Land speeders will do the same thing; 3 fairly small models should be able to stay hidden.

    Next turn; half of the reserves arrive. Most likely; it will be two Grey Hunter squads; and one other type of either unit the dreadnought; or the scouts.

    The scouts intent to assault on the turn they arrive; using their special rules; arrive behind enemy lines. They will hit powerful assault units; crippling them with a power fist; or heavy shooters; like Havocs; stopping them for shooting; and killing a fair number while they are at it.

    When the drop pods land; the troops inside will unload a significant blast of bolter fire; they can also be used for anti tank support if the situation requires it.

    While this happens; the tornados pop out; along with the HQ.

    The HQ on bike will go after shooty units weak in assault. He on his own is pretty hard to kill as long as the enemy does have any power fists in their squad. If no such squad exists; he will simply shoot the enemy; and join a Grey hunters squad for a turn.

    Further specification of tactics will depend on mission and opponent.


    Fluff:
    In the dead of night a thunder hawk delivers its deadly cargo.

    The elite scouts move to the latest enemy position; using their incredible infiltration skills they will sneak around to the back of the enemy; cutting off any retreat.

    The rest of the scouting party waits for the scout’s signal; they include the HQ; and two land speeders.

    A single roar of a wolf and bike engine can be herd; in the confusion little does the enemy know it is already to late; the drop pods descend upon them; shattering their lines under hail of bolter fire; only to assaulted from behind and the front.

    Of those few who have ever survived such an attack they describe it as though they had been hunted by a wolf pack; a small legend has sponge up amounts the enemies of the emperor. Fear the wolf cry; for it rains death from the stars.


    ---------------


    Dark Angels

    HQ: 400
    Elites: 0
    Troops: 360
    Fast Attack: 480
    Heavy Support: 260

    Deathwing Codicier:
    Terminator Armour; Stubborn; Fear of the Darkness; Furious Charge

    4x Deathwing Command Terminators:
    2x Storm Bolter & Powerfist; 2x Assault Cannon & Powerfist, Drop Pod; Furious Charge

    5x Tactical Marines:
    4x Bolters; 1x Plasma cannon

    5x Tactical Marines:
    4x Bolters; 1x Plasma cannon

    5x Tactical Marines:
    4x Bolters; 1x Plasma cannon

    5x Tactical Marines:
    4x Bolters; 1x Plasma cannon

    2x Ravenwing Land Speeders
    Assault Cannon & Heavy Bolter

    2x Ravenwing Land Speeders
    Assault Cannon & Heavy Bolter

    2x Ravenwing Land Speeders
    Assault Cannon & Heavy Bolter

    Vindicator:
    Demolisher Cannon; Storm Bolter; Extra Armour

    Vindicator:
    Demolisher Cannon; Storm Bolter; Extra Armour



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  3. #2
    Dancing Peanuts? You bet! Robizzle's Avatar
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    106 (x4)

    Drop Podding Space Wolves against Plasma Cannons and Vindicators?

    As long as the Dark Angels player is smart, at least 1 Vindicator will survive the drop, and be prepped to blow the crap out of a squad. Because the Wolvies are gonna be arriving piecemeal, there's little chance of them being able to do enough damage.

    Dark Angels

  4. #3
    Son of LO LordLink's Avatar
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    228 (x8)

    deep-strike means everyone is forced to group together. Against that many plasma cannons and demo cannons that is suicide. The wolves can't dish out enough damage the turn they arrive and will be blown off the board by ap2 blasts.

    Since the mission is seek and destroy Space Wolves will have very little left and DA will have almost everyone still sitting on the board.

    Dark Angels.

    good to see these Space Wolves have fought 2 feud battles now.
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  5. #4
    Ghost of LO ForgedInTheFurnaceOfWar's Avatar
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    185 (x8)

    ep-strike means everyone is forced to group together. Against that many plasma cannons and demo cannons that is suicide. The wolves can't dish out enough damage the turn they arrive and will be blown off the board by ap2 blasts.
    Thats why the wolves use drop pods, so they dont have to deep strike, that is, so they can block LOS, place closely ect.

    Also the wolves have more then enough fire power to kill both vindis the turn they arrive.


    I see it more like this:

    The scouts will strike behind enemy lines, assaulting one squad of the dark angles, the bike mounted HQ will assault another. Thats half of there backbone gone. (or it will be in a couple turns)

    The space wolves need only stop one vindicator from shooting, they can use there drop pods to deny LOS from the other.

    They can be fairly easily done with the melta skimmer, which has a good chance of killing one.

    The other two squads, could then focus on hitting a single vindi- 2 melta guns shots is almost always a dead tank, or blast the heck out of the remaining infantry.

    2 Melta gun shots, and half range, on side armour: 2 shots, 1.33 hits, .9975(otherwise known as 1) .49 destoryed, regarless it cant shoot.

    OR (los of the vindis being denied by the pods)

    14 bolt style shots: 9.33 hits, 4.67 wounds, 1.55 dead

    1 melta gun, .67 wounds, .56 dead

    OR

    They could fire at the landspeeders

    14 shots, 9.33 hits, 1.49 glances

    1 melta gun shot, .67 glances, (auto glance)

    .71 destoryed.

    So that basically means that (assuming both wolve squads attacked the skimmers,) 2 of 6 skimmers die, 2 of the 4 left cant shoot, or (or dont have an AC)

    Theres also the other wolves landspeeder, which will probably also fire at the vindi, this is because the dark angle player isnt stupid, and he can hide his landspeeders as good as the wolf.


    The space wolves fast strike will leave the DAs unable to respond. There speeders can be taken down the drop podders, and the vindis nutralised with LOS blocking + multi melta.

    The scouts and bike mounte HQ are in CC by the turn two.
    Last edited by ForgedInTheFurnaceOfWar; July 23rd, 2006 at 11:45.

  6. #5
    Son of LO LordLink's Avatar
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    228 (x8)

    Well one major flaw with that forged is that the vindis can simply drop their pie plate on the drop pods. The blast is big enough to cover 2" from all sides of the pod so the whole squad (forced to squish within 2") will be covered.

    The Dark Angels will have 2 shooting phases to take down the land speeders and dread so stunned 1st turn by them isn't that much of a problem.

    I have never seen the official forgeworld model but I doubt a pod is big enough to hide 10 grey hunters behind. If the plasma cannon can see just 1 model the blast can be dropped on it and hit several people.

    The Dark Angel land speeders can skimmer far away. The Space Wolves won't be able to shoot them unless they want to DS next to them. If they DS next to them they will have to footslog their way to the rest of the DA.

    6 assault cannons and 6 heavy bolters can put a significant dent in the Space Wolves. Not to mention they can fly behind the pods so LoS wont be a problem.

    The vindicators can also spend 2 turns moving around so the Space Wolves will have trouble hiding from both of them and all the plasma cannons. The Space Wolves can be surrounded in this fight.

    Also even if the wolves do hit DA lines and massacre a squad they are to strong in cc. Caluin often says being to strong at cc is a weakness as you will massacre the squad and be left open for all the plasma cannons to come back at you.
    Check out my Codex: Farmyard Animals here!

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  7. #6
    LO Zealot Ezekiel1990's Avatar
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    104 (x4)

    Dark Angels as all they have to do is sit and shoot, no objectives or tabe quarters to worry about.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordLink
    I have never seen the official forgeworld model but I doubt a pod is big enough to hide 10 grey hunters behind. If the plasma cannon can see just 1 model the blast can be dropped on it and hit several people.
    It's impossible. It's not even possible to hide 5 termies ont heir new bases behind it without at least one partial termy sticking out. The Grey hunters will be squashed together and they won't be able to hide everyone. So the plasma cannons and vindicators are good enough.

    But for the sake of being fair with arguements I'll go a little easy on that.

    The Dark Angel land speeders can skimmer far away. The Space Wolves won't be able to shoot them unless they want to DS next to them. If they DS next to them they will have to footslog their way to the rest of the DA.
    Yeah if I learned one thing about going against SW it's to use ravenwing instead of SW. SW can't hurt LSTs for crap except with overly expensive long fangs. And if the SW split their forces they won't be able to kill one side with 5 units.

    6 assault cannons and 6 heavy bolters can put a significant dent in the Space Wolves. Not to mention they can fly behind the pods so LoS wont be a problem.
    Yeah and those scouts are as good as boned. With only 5 models and with a first turn charge impossible, there's not much they can do.

    The vindicators can also spend 2 turns moving around so the Space Wolves will have trouble hiding from both of them and all the plasma cannons. The Space Wolves can be surrounded in this fight.
    Well I'm thinking the Vindis will split up since there's a multi-melta in that SW list. It's got about a 50% chance of killing one of them.

    Also even if the wolves do hit DA lines and massacre a squad they are to strong in cc. Caluin often says being to strong at cc is a weakness as you will massacre the squad and be left open for all the plasma cannons to come back at you.
    Yeah the DA list is mostly static firepower so they can split up and take care of the SW piecemeal. Also remember that only 2-3 drop pods will come down in turn 2. So there's a demolisher and 2 plasma cannons, as well as a load of bolters and assault cannons to help them out.

    The SW will have 2 choices: Annihilate one flank of the DA with all its units and get shot to death by the other flank while slogging (the only SW units that move more than 6" are the Land Speeders) or split up their forces to put one unit a turn against a bunch of plasma, assault cannons etc.

    OR

    They could fire at the landspeeders

    14 shots, 9.33 hits, 1.49 glances

    1 melta gun shot, .67 glances, (auto glance)

    .71 destoryed.

    So that basically means that (assuming both wolve squads attacked the skimmers,) 2 of 6 skimmers die, 2 of the 4 left cant shoot, or (or dont have an AC)
    Well then they'd be at the other side of the board and would be shot to crud.

    Thats why the wolves use drop pods, so they dont have to deep strike, that is, so they can block LOS, place closely ect.
    If it were 5 termies coming out of a pod I would agree but it's impossible to hide 9 25mm models behind it without breaking the 2" rule for disembarking. Not to mention, if the DA are indeed split into two groups and the SW disembark on one side of the pod, they will be in LOS of one of the flanks unless they arrive on the very edge of the board directly in front of one of the flanks. No SW player is going to place their pod that close to the board edge since going off the board kills drop pods (not at my gaming club mind you). And they will be placed closely anyway so the plasma cannons will decimate them.

    If the SW drop very close to the DA, they will be in LOS anyway. Because the DA force will be big enough to see a bit beyond the edges of the DP.

    The scouts will strike behind enemy lines, assaulting one squad of the dark angles, the bike mounted HQ will assault another. Thats half of there backbone gone. (or it will be in a couple turns)
    At that point the rest of the SW army is dead so even if that did happen the bike HQ and scouts have no chance to kill all the LSTs.

    They can be fairly easily done with the melta skimmer, which has a good chance of killing one.
    lessee, 66% chance of hitting, and the average of 2D6 is a 7, so about a 60% chance of a penetrating hit and then a 66% chance of destroying it or at least knocking off its cannon, so a 43% chance of killing a vindi. Oh, and there's only a 50% chance of it coming in on turn 2 when at least 2 grey hunter squads are going to come in, so that's about a 21.5% chance of stopping the vindi from firing. In school, that's an F.

    The other two squads, could then focus on hitting a single vindi- 2 melta guns shots is almost always a dead tank, or blast the heck out of the remaining infantry.

    2 Melta gun shots, and half range, on side armour: 2 shots, 1.33 hits, .9975(otherwise known as 1) .49 destoryed, regarless it cant shoot.

    OR (los of the vindis being denied by the pods)

    14 bolt style shots: 9.33 hits, 4.67 wounds, 1.55 dead

    1 melta gun, .67 wounds, .56 dead
    Hmm, the last time I checked Drop pods have a 66% chance of scattering. There is no gurantee that the Drop pod will bring them where they want. I'd give them one meltagun in range, probably not even within 6".

    The Vindi, however, will definately be in range so it can just turn, which doesn't count as movement for shooting. With one D6" scatter and an average of 3.5, and considering that the Drop pod is 3" and the squad makes the target area bigger, that's a very good chance of doing massive damage.

    The space wolves fast strike will leave the DAs unable to respond. There speeders can be taken down the drop podders, and the vindis nutralised with LOS blocking + multi melta.

    The scouts and bike mounte HQ are in CC by the turn two.
    If the SW list was just terminators I would agree because two 40mm bases is smaller than three 25mm bases and there would still be a termy in LOS. Plus there's 9 models so there's definately going to be a couple in LOS, and since they disembarked they will be close together, otherwise, they would have to form a ring around the drop pod which is stupid.

    I can see the scouts getting in combat by turn 2 and maybe killing a squad... lessee 2 DA dead form powerfist and 3 from the normal attacks... but since the DA have a good 2' to spread out for each flank, the wolf scouts aren't going to be in charge range of anything else for the DA turn with massacre (3.5" average or 3" with normal consolidation), they will most likely die.

    But the SW HQ... no that's not going to be a first turn charge. The SW will give DA the first turn as they are drop podding, so the SW HQ must be behind cover, which he can't turbo-boost through, or out in the open where he will die from plasma cannons.

    Oh and throughout all this I didn't mention that the DA have their own deep-striking termies with assault cannons. Whatever's left of the SW, the DA will use this to clean it up. Not to mention that if the DA player Drop pods them away fromt he SW lines the SW have no hope of killing them as their weapons are 12" (well there's bolters too but they're not going to kill the termies) and the SW will chase them around forever if the SW are still alive.

    Well for fluff I'm going to call it a tie. SW are basically close combat guys (but what's witht he Land Speeders??) and the DA are static firepower.
    Last edited by Ezekiel1990; July 23rd, 2006 at 19:43.

  8. #7
    Ghost of LO ForgedInTheFurnaceOfWar's Avatar
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    185 (x8)

    Well one major flaw with that forged is that the vindis can simply drop their pie plate on the drop pods. The blast is big enough to cover 2" from all sides of the pod so the whole squad (forced to squish within 2") will be covered.
    It seems people are considered with the vindis killing lots of space wolves - ordancy realy only kills about 3 models a turn, but thats not important.

    Multi melta landspeeder does not deep strike.

    Multi melta landspeeder instead manouvers up the field and out of LOS of the enemy landspeeders.

    Its just to easy to hide one small landspeeder.

    By the end of turn two, it pops out, in half range, since it can easly get that much distance.

    .67 hits, (shoot side armour, at full range, or front armour at half, (its the same amount of damge)) .45 penetrating hits .23 destoryed results.

    Assault cannon from the other landspeeder at side armour vindi: 4 shots, 2.667 hits, .44 penetrating hits, and .44 glancing hits.

    Glancing hits, .44. .07 destroyed results

    Penetrating: .22 destoryed results

    That equals .29 destoryed results.

    So if both the landspeeders suicide for the a vindi, they can take it down.

    As said before, two drop pods is more then enough to take out a vindi.

    So consider both vindis out of the fight before they where in it.

    The scouts use strike behind enemy lines, they can charge out of that, and will.

    The bike mounted HQ is too fast, each squad will get a charge.

    HQ: kills 2.667, rounds 3 dead.

    2 marines strike back, 1.33 hit, .43 wounds, .14 wounds

    Scouts: bolt pistols firing into the marines: 6 shots, 4 hits, 2 wounds, .66 dead.

    They charge, scouts, 15 attacks, 10 hits, 5 wounds, 1.66 dead.

    4 marines strike back, 2.67 hits, 1.33 wound, .66 dead.

    Wolf gaurd powerfist, 4 attacks, 2.667 hits, 2.24 dead.

    Totals: 3.9 dead + 1 from shooting, scouts masacure, possibly consolidate into a new squad.

    So thats 2 tactical squads destoryed + both vindies destoryed, on the turn the wolves arrive.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Now the DAs turn-

    2 tactical squads are dead, or will be dead by the end of this turn.

    + 2 vindis.

    There landspeeders will probably whipe the floor with the wolfes speeders, im not even going to calc it, 2 squads fire at speeders, each die.

    The remaining 2 turn there firepower on infantry probably-

    (they can most easily kill scouts, thats who id target, but ill do both):

    8 AC shots: 1.3 rends + 4 hits, 3.36 wounds, 1.1 + 1.3 dead

    6 HBs: 4 hits, 2.667, .88 dead

    Total of 3 wolves killed.

    Scouts: 4.88 dead even with a cover save of 5+, however, that leaves more Grey Hunters still alive.

    Greyhunters can hide form the remaining plasma guns by deploying smarty-

    Place the pod between them and the plasma cannons, and or the vindi between them and the tactical squad.

    Now, since it isnt possibly to hide 9 models behind the pod, the wolves will hide 6, which is is possible, tighty packed. The other three will place two inches away from eachother, and everyone else.

    In this way, they angles will only kill one wolf with there plasma cannons + what ever there bolters get.

    Call it 2.

    That would be a total of 4 wolves dead + the scouts, and landspeeders. So an impressive response from the DAs.

    50-50 chance of the terminators showing up.

    If they did they will could about 3 wolves.

    (less the the two landspeedes)

    Now its the wolves turn again.

    The HQ on bike will assault one of the two tactical squads still alive.

    A greyhunters squad and venerable dreadnought arrive.

    The dreadnought will probably go after skimmers with this BS5, that scores two glances. Which will probably kill 1 skimmer + prevent the other one from shooting. Rougly what it did the vypers, not quite as good.

    As well as the arriving squad of greyhuntes. Who will attack the landspeeders again scoring 2+ glances, thus killing one, and preventing the other from shooting. (or something about that)

    The greyhunters will tag team the terminators-

    2 melta shots, rougly 1 dead.

    Librarian kills 1.66.

    Terminator sgt killed .5.

    Assuming the greyhunters lose 8 guys- .64 dead

    12 wolf powerfists: 8 hits, 6.72 wounds, 4.48

    Thats good enough to kill everyone and the DA leader, if they can get a fist in CC with him, it shouldnt be that difficult.

    in return the terminators will smite 3

    Leaveing probably 1 wolf squad below 50 percent.

    Now the wolves have killed both vindies, 3 tactical squads(by the end of the DAs next assault phase), the terminators, 2 skimmers + damaged 2 others, this leaves only 1 tactical squad + 2 landspeeders to respond.

    Space wolves

  9. #8
    Son of LO LordLink's Avatar
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    228 (x8)

    This is your list right Forged so I'll give you the choice. You want this list to go second right? if you win first turn you'd forfeit it.

    2 Land speeders may well be able to advance down the board out of sight but there are 6 land speeders hunting them. You just can't hide from these 6 speeders and since each one has a heavy bolter and assault cannon the wolf speeders will go down without pulling a shot off. At least not a melta shot.

    With your statistics why arent all the scouts dead? the odds of them surviving is tiny, what with land speeders, vindicators, deep-striking termies (who can turn up before the SW) and plasma cannons making open ground a killing field.

    From your statistics I presume you want the wolves to go 1st?

    By the way the bike HQ gets insta-killed by demolisher cannons, its only a 3+ invul save and it can be failed.

    PS: does 3++ mean 3+ invul or 3+ reroll failure?
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  10. #9
    Ghost of LO ForgedInTheFurnaceOfWar's Avatar
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    185 (x8)

    By the way the bike HQ gets insta-killed by demolisher cannons, its only a 3+ invul save and it can be failed.
    Um..

    So, a bike mounted HQ on bike is gonna be in LOS of a vindi why?

    Secondly, the vindi will miss him 2/3s of the time.

    Third, even if it its, hes got a hell of a chance to survive.

    With your statistics why arent all the scouts dead? the odds of them surviving is tiny, what with land speeders, vindicators, deep-striking termies (who can turn up before the SW) and plasma cannons making open ground a killing field.
    Because you wont read my posts compeletly.

    the scouts have the special rules, behind enemy lines.

    What does this do you might ask?

    It allows the scouts to deploy in reserves, when they arrive they move in from the enemy deployment zone. In pefect charge range of those tactical marines.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Now about the landspeeders the DAs are forced to go first, this means the wolves can counter the DAs movements.

    Staying out of LOS.

    And then popping out when they need to.

    Anyway, the DA is smart enough not to zoom his landspeeders up as fast as possible, otherwise the wolves speeder will simply down two of them, that would make up double its points right there.

    From your statistics I presume you want the wolves to go 1st?
    No, wolves in the dice roll 75% of the time, because of a dreadnought special rule.

    By the way, if you look closely, youll notice that everything except the bike mounted HQ has the ability to deploy in reservers.

    The scouts will opt to, everything else, except: skimmers + bike mounted HQ, will deploy via reserves.

    This means the dreadnought, ive noticed multiple times in which you have failed to read the drop pod for the dreadnought.
    Last edited by ForgedInTheFurnaceOfWar; July 24th, 2006 at 00:38.

  11. #10
    LO Zealot Ezekiel1990's Avatar
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    104 (x4)

    Quote Originally Posted by ForgedInTheFurnaceOfWar
    So, a bike mounted HQ on bike is gonna be in LOS of a vindi why?
    If he's not he's gotta be behind cover which means he can't turbo boost enough to get a 2nd turn charge.

    Secondly, the vindi will miss him 2/3s of the time.
    It will scatter 2/3 of the time, not neccessarily miss. So more like a 50% chance of missing entirely.

    The scouts have the special rules, behind enemy lines.

    What does this do you might ask?

    It allows the scouts to deploy in reserves, when they arrive they move in from the enemy deployment zone. In pefect charge range of those tactical marines.
    Well now you're relying on them coming in on turn 2... so in addition to relying on there being enough terrain for 2 vehicles to hide from 6 with the same speed and better survivability, you're relying on gettign a 4+ no matter what...

    Now about the landspeeders the DAs are forced to go first, this means the wolves can counter the DAs movements.
    So 2 Land Speeders are going to counter the DA movement???

    Staying out of LOS.

    And then popping out when they need to.
    If the DA LSTs move in different directions, they can come on the sides. Since the front is always covered by the rest of the DA army, the 3 LST squadrond have 3 more areas to cover, in terms of getting LOS to the enemy LSTs.

    Anyway, the DA is smart enough not to zoom his landspeeders up as fast as possible, otherwise the wolves speeder will simply down two of them, that would make up double its points right there.
    Well according to you it's possible for 2 SW LSTs to hide forever... so I guess there must be some special rule that lets SW do this but not DA...

    By the way, if you look closely, youll notice that everything except the bike mounted HQ has the ability to deploy in reservers.
    But you said the SW speeders aren't doing this...

    This means the dreadnought, ive noticed multiple times in which you have failed to read the drop pod for the dreadnought.
    Well with a 6" movement the LSTs can kill this too when they double back to kill the SW.

    In all honesty it's ok for the DA to lose 2 speeders to kill the SW ones, because once the SW speeders are dead the SW have close to nil that can effectively kill the DA LSTs.

    It seems people are considered with the vindis killing lots of space wolves - ordancy realy only kills about 3 models a turn, but thats not important.
    Well I think it's important because it's wrong. if you read my post, you will notice that I mention that the Drop pod is 3" wide and the whole mass of the drop pod and SW is more than this. The average scatter distance minus the radius of the blast template is less than the radius of the SW group.

    Most of (if not all of) your arguements go by allowing the SW lots of restrictions that the DA can't have, like hiding the Land Speeders forever. I trust by now you've noticed that you can't hide 9 models completely in a 3" by 2" area, right? Because if not, then the DA have LOS tot he grey hunters.

    As said before, two drop pods is more then enough to take out a vindi.

    So consider both vindis out of the fight before they where in it.
    It's considered that both paper players ave the same intelligence. Since the SW player, in your arguements, clearly does not act like a meltal patient, the DA player wouldn't just leave his stuff out for the SW player to kill like that. In your arguements, the vindis just sit there while the completely ignored SW land speeders move up and kill them. I don't see that happening. As soon as the SW player moves, the DA player can just position his units firstly putting the vindis in the rear and on the edge so that it would be suicide for the SW to drop pod that close to the table edge (DA units could just be around the Vindi close enough so that the Drop pod would have to reduce scatter distance to get further away, denying the SW from shooting the vindi.

    Also, it would be impossible for the SW player to get a 2nd turn shooting from the LSTs without moving it pretty far int he first turn. If the SW speeders are at least halfway accross the board, the DA speeders can move 12" out and shoot them.

    Greyhunters can hide form the remaining plasma guns by deploying smarty-

    Place the pod between them and the plasma cannons, and or the vindi between them and the tactical squad.

    Now, since it isnt possibly to hide 9 models behind the pod, the wolves will hide 6, which is is possible, tighty packed. The other three will place two inches away from eachother, and everyone else.

    In this way, they angles will only kill one wolf with there plasma cannons + what ever there bolters get.

    Call it 2.

    That would be a total of 4 wolves dead + the scouts, and landspeeders. So an impressive response from the DAs.
    That would definately be possible. Except not because all the DA units would have to be in a straight line pointing at the pod, without any coverage of the sides. Or, the Drop pod would have to be about 24" away, which isn't going to help them. Here's a neat little diagram.

    .....SW...........
    .....DP
    DA..DA..DA
    -----------------
    As you can see, the two side DA units will easily be able to see the SW. This, of course, assumes that the SW are close enough to get a charge the next turn. So unless the DA player places all his stuff tight together (which he won't because he has brains and doesn't want the SW player consolidating into his other stuff), they will be apart enough in their two flanks to get LOS to the grey hunters.

    50-50 chance of the terminators showing up.
    Again, you're giving the SW "special privileges", for instance, you don't mention that the SW scouts only have a 50-50 of coming in, and if the HQ gets a second turn charge, he will have to be away from cover to turbo-boost, in which case a vindi could pop him off first turn, which, according to you, the DA will get. Since at least one vindi is placed after that SW HQ, this is very feasible.

    Now the wolves have killed both vindies, 3 tactical squads(by the end of the DAs next assault phase), the terminators, 2 skimmers + damaged 2 others, this leaves only 1 tactical squad + 2 landspeeders to respond.
    *sigh. I suppose if god were rolling the dice in favor of the SW, then yes, this could happen.

    You have a lot of math in the SW defense but it's just math without any valid data in terms of how it's going to happen in the first place. Like the Land speeders going right up to the vindis killing them completely unscathed (unless there's a SW rule that allows them to move 24" and shoot, it's not going to happen), the SW HQ magically turboboosting through cover (because he will have to be in the open if you want a 2nd turn charge with him), the scouts always arriving on turn 2, and the DA player with a walnut for a brain putting his tactical squads together in a way that lets the SW player drop pod close and still only draw a LOS to only a few of the models. Oh and the vindis dying no matter what.

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