Abusing army threat management thresholds

[Left of West]

Eh, sorta. An Armoured Company list can reasonably be expected to field nothing but Leman Russ tanks. With 6 feet of range on those battle cannons Battlecannons, they can actually play the whole game effectively with their backs against the edge of the board--making back armour shots actually impossible no matter how maneuverable the opponent.

But, really, it was just an example. The principle holds true against any army, basically.

Necrons are one of the notable exceptions to the rule of tank/infantry overloading, since every gun in the army works fairly well against both infantry and tanks. Still, you can overload against a Necron army, too. A Deathwing army, with lots of 2+ saves (against which the Necrons aren't so effective) is overloaded against a particular weakness of Necrons.

Ultimately, yes--overloading is always a form of tailoring, since not all armies respond the same to an overloaded army--some responding better and some responding worse. However, the metagame should never be overlooked. Every army, even the 'all comers' army presumes a certain metagame environment necessarily, and an army can be overloaded for advantage against any particular metagame environment.

That is, it is tailoring in a way, but that doesn't make it any less viable or important.

[kroxigor01]

Originally Posted by Atma

While true, firewarriors are not that useless since a properly mechanized Tau list could get behind those tanks and give the firewarriors a shot at that lovely rear armor. Very few vehicles have RA above 11.

They are very useless. You need 120 points of FW and 85 points of DF to give them a chance of killing a 155 points tank, that's not point efficiency. Also, they are almost certainly going to die next turn due to a high concentration of pie plates around a unit that just disembark into a nice oval shape...

Some armies are better at overloading than others. For example, IG CAN load up on vehicles (3 leman russ tanks, 3 hell hounds, 6 chimeras). However, the fact that their transports aren't skimmers plays against them. A single penetrating hit automatically causes all embarked to pour out.

Yes, some armies can overload and others can't. I have a mechanised IG list and I must say, I don't care about my passengers as long as I kill all their AT before they kill all my tanks (which so far, has always happened). Its sometimes nice to have 2-3 infantry units left to claim objectives but a lone hellhound does the job just as well.

Non-transport, non-skimmer tanks are incredibly slow as well. They CAN move fairly well, but because of the need to fire most, if not all, of their weapons, they very rarely move very far. Vehicles like the short ranged hellhounds and Immolators will have to advance and will be able to be ignored for at least a turn by anti-tank fire.

I don't understand what your saying here. Yes they are slow, so? There killing 5 models a turn from 72' range. Hellhounds have 24' range which I do not consider short.

Vehicles are, of course, crippled by the fact that they don't need to be destroyed to be rendered inoperable for at least a turn. A successful glancing with guarantee that a vehicle will not be able to shoot at all. Also, many vehicles will lose most of their effectiveness with the loss of a single weapon (Exorcists with the launcher, speeders with the assault cannon, basilisk with its cannon, etc).

Good luck glancing 13 vehicles in one turn. The Necrons can (if they have 13 units within 24') but they are an exception.

All in all, I do like the thread, but it seems to me that it's just another facet of designing your list to specifically face another opponent. For example, an Armored Company wouldn't fight against Necrons nor would a skimmer heavy Eldar army (from my experience). Likewise, I doubt assault marine heavy armies would go toe to toe against Orks and Tyranids. You can try to abuse threat managements with the same list against multiple opponents and armies, but it just won't work a lot of times.

Necrons suck against Armoured Companies and Eldar Skimmer armies. They have no anti tank special weapons (apart from Heavy Destroyers who are expense, small in number and easily killed with a pie template or a rapid firing passenger veteran squad full of plasma) and have shot ranges, so they lose. I'd be far more scared of Tau then Necrons with my mechanised army. Why would Assault Marine armies not want to play Orks or Marines? Orks have S3 in the majority making them almost completely useless in combat against MEQs (and the Orks have pitiful Initiative which is a HUGE disadvantage in a 6 turn brawl). Tyranids would be slightly more scary, but they are scary to all combat armies (ever seen an Ork against Nid line up? Nids win 80% of the time).

You can try to abuse threat managements with the same list against multiple opponents and armies, but it just won't work a lot of times.

It works against all armies, I fail to see how getting more of one unit type then the enemy can deal with can be worse then neatly choosing just enough of each unit type to keep all your opponents unit well fed in targets but not drowned in them.

If you could find a unit that kills MEQs, TEQs, tanks, GEQs, skimmers etc with equal effect and made up your entire army from that unit you would nullify the advantage granted by my style of army list building. Unfortunately there is no such unit and even if it did exist it would cost to many points to be a viable choice.

[Lazyseer]

This is a great tactica and can be applied to most armies

Anouther army this could work for is Space Marines in drop pods. Because of the overload in deepstrike, enemies with long range guns will be wasting the points invested in the long range of those guns.

An overloaded army doesnt rely on any one one unit to achieve a goal. "Yes I killed a squad of genestealers, only 6 more squads to go. :ninja:

Also because all the units in the army will all be moving at almost the same speed they support eachother more easily then an army with some bikes, a havoc squad, terminators etc.

Good stuff

[Aun'la]

I think this tactica is great. But I've been thinking about it and I can't think of another threat that one would leave out of one's army besides Tanks/Armor. In other words, If I leave tanks out of my list then it makes my opponents anti-tank stuff less valuable/worthless; but what other "anti" squads are there? Is there anti-speed? Anti-elites? I guess I'm looking for more examples.

Thanks

[kroxigor01]

Originally Posted by Aun'la

I think this tactica is great. But I've been thinking about it and I can't think of another threat that one would leave out of one's army besides Tanks/Armor. In other words, If I leave tanks out of my list then it makes my opponents anti-tank stuff less valuable/worthless; but what other "anti" squads are there? Is there anti-speed? Anti-elites? I guess I'm looking for more examples.

Thanks

You could leave out slow things ('slow' melee armies like foot slogging Orks will then not catch you), TEQs, Infantry (normally you keep some and stick them in transports or out of sight though) or light tanks (VERY different from heavy tanks). Some armies (particularly ranged armies) have 'counter assault' units which would of course be useless if you never assault.

@Lazyseer

Anouther army this could work for is Space Marines in drop pods. Because of the overload in deepstrike, enemies with long range guns will be wasting the points invested in the long range of those guns.

I never thought of that. Wasting points spent in a long range advantage by dropping right on their heads could easily be pulled off. Also note that in this army you will have [hopefully] overloaded their anti MEQ units, especially if you drop your units to kill these units before they get to react.

[Atma]

Originally Posted by kroxigor01

They are very useless. You need 120 points of FW and 85 points of DF to give them a chance of killing a 155 points tank, that's not point efficiency. Also, they are almost certainly going to die next turn due to a high concentration of pie plates around a unit that just disembark into a nice oval shape...

And you need ninety points of hormagaunts to kill a Marine, assuming the hormies get the charge, and the only way to make sure hormies decent killers are to increase their individual cost 20-50%. Points inefficiency is part of the game. Sometimes you just have to work with what you have.


Yes, some armies can overload and others can't. I have a mechanised IG list and I must say, I don't care about my passengers as long as I kill all their AT before they kill all my tanks (which so far, has always happened). Its sometimes nice to have 2-3 infantry units left to claim objectives but a lone hellhound does the job just as well.

Originally Posted by kroxigor01

Good luck glancing 13 vehicles in one turn. The Necrons can (if they have 13 units within 24') but they are an exception.

Well, if we're using guard as a comparison, we can use another 3rd edition army as comparison--remember the old Eldar codex? It's not impossible, especially if you're facing a gunlining army that will happily place its troops in cover all game. Or Dark Eldar, who can have 12 Dark Lances in their army. Granted, they don't have the best range, but most games aren't done on extremely large tables, where the Guard are at their best.

Originally Posted by kroxigor01

Necrons suck against Armoured Companies and Eldar Skimmer armies. They have no anti tank special weapons (apart from Heavy Destroyers who are expense, small in number and easily killed with a pie template or a rapid firing passenger veteran squad full of plasma) and have shot ranges, so they lose. I'd be far more scared of Tau then Necrons with my mechanised army. Why would Assault Marine armies not want to play Orks or Marines? Orks have S3 in the majority making them almost completely useless in combat against MEQs (and the Orks have pitiful Initiative which is a HUGE disadvantage in a 6 turn brawl). Tyranids would be slightly more scary, but they are scary to all combat armies (ever seen an Ork against Nid line up? Nids win 80% of the time).

You keep using your IG as an example. Necrons can be devastating against high-costing vehicle with Monolith deepstrike/teleporting and Lord VoD.

As for Assault Marines, I've never seen them--ever--been used against a 'close combat' army such as Orks or Tyranids (especially old Orks with the special choppa rules). After all, why would you want to run into the large ork boy squad with the hidden powerklaw Nob. Or, really, why would any Marine player ever want to advance when they can just shoot? Only against armies that shoot better than them but suck in CC (Necrons, Tau). Just for the record, DE Wyches and Harlequins pretty much laugh at any other CC specialist unit (Wyches especially).

Originally Posted by kroxigor01

It works against all armies, I fail to see how getting more of one unit type then the enemy can deal with can be worse then neatly choosing just enough of each unit type to keep all your opponents unit well fed in targets but not drowned in them.

By virtue of the FoC, you can almost never drown an enemy in one type of unit to overload them. You use Armored Company as an example, but the other player could simply refuse to play against that--after all, would you let a Tyranid player field carnifexes in the troops section and winged hive tyrants as FA?

Also, many weapons can 'double' as a different type of killers. For example, heavy bolters are great against light and medium infantry. However, in a pinch, they can be used decently against MEQs and even some MCs. Likewise, lascannons are anti-tank, but can just as easily shred bikes, MEQs, and MCs. It's not their purpose, but they can do it, and the law of averages, while cruel, does tend to help.

In fact, really, the only two types of 'overloading' you could probably do effectively are vehicles (since they're effectively immune to most forms of small fire) and terminator equivalents. Most vehicles can't be spammed, and most of the ones who can, like transports, aren't a huge threat (though if we're counting the IG again with their chimeras...). Terminators are expensive (an 80 point IST squad can take out a 5-man squad of termies), and most vehicles can be 'sectioned' off by long range fire--rhinos won't help you if your predators, landraiders, then landspeeders are wiped out...

Originally Posted by kroxigor01

If you could find a unit that kills MEQs, TEQs, tanks, GEQs, skimmers etc with equal effect

You mean assault cannons?

At any rate, your unit selections are there for a reason. Threat overloading only works because some armies can't adequately deal with it because of their age or concept. Taking advantage of this concept is listhammering, plain and simple, despite its fancy names.

Lastly, if your battle tactics revolve around sitting in your corner or table edge and shooting to death armies that have short ranged weapons that FORCE them to come to you, your choices are already simple. Likewise, if two gunlining armies fight each other, their army choices become fairly irrelevant as well--the game goes to the one with the most luck and the most high strength, long range weaponry.

After a certain point, if all you do is listhammer, sit in your deployment zone, your movement phases take less than thirty seconds, and your greatest tactical choice is what to wash away with massive amounts of firepower first, then you might as well stop playing, because all you care about is winning. ANd, really, playing against people who only want to win is not fun at all.

[kroxigor01]

Sometimes you just have to work with what you have

But 'working with what you have' is inefficient. Would you prefer to fire a Lascannon at a tank or at an infantrymen? I know lascannons WILL be taken against me though so I won't get any tanks for them to shoot at, or I could get 11 tanks so you don't have enough Lascannons.

Well, if we're using guard as a comparison, we can use another 3rd edition army as comparison--remember the old Eldar codex? It's not impossible, especially if you're facing a gunlining army that will happily place its troops in cover all game. Or Dark Eldar, who can have 12 Dark Lances in their army. Granted, they don't have the best range, but most games aren't done on extremely large tables, where the Guard are at their best.

MOST armies cannot stop 13 vehicles. It is very easy to get into a situation where you have more tanks then their are anti tank weapons when you get so many tanks which generally leaves you with 5+ tanks left at turn 5 when the enemy no longer have and anti tank capability.

You keep using your IG as an example. Necrons can be devastating against high-costing vehicle with Monolith deepstrike/teleporting and Lord VoD.

Great, so with a 250 point Monolith or 150 point (unsure of this cost) Lord you can kill one tank. Well done. Next turn I drop a pie plate on the unit that you just grouped in a huddle. That is IF you actually fielded either unit.

By virtue of the FoC, you can almost never drown an enemy in one type of unit to overload them. You use Armored Company as an example, but the other player could simply refuse to play against that--after all, would you let a Tyranid player field carnifexes in the troops section and winged hive tyrants as FA?

But if you can overload it is generally a good idea. Overloading in friendly game is generally not a good idea though as its not fun.

Also, no one said you can't use tactics and make your list better then the opponents at the same time.

[General Thaddeus]

Well, you are right about one thing, overloading isn't fun! As the name implies, you get an insane amount of "something" in your army while fulfilling the minimum requirement in everything else. That would be a terrible list to play in my opinion because it is so cheap and yet in so simple a concept, albeit a concept than 99 percent of gamers instinctively don't use because they want to have fun, win, and not beat down the other player while laughing maniacally... (an armored company guy at my shop did).

Cheers:happy:

[N1AK]

I know this Tactica isn't exactly fresh, but I think the topic is one that will remain valid and important for as long as Wargaming exists

Overloading is valid and effective way of designing an army, and although all the counter-points regarding dealing with these armies using more balanced lists are important I don't think they remove the point of Overloading (specialised lists).

One thing I think will be interesting is seeing how 5th Ed effects these kinds of army. Many of the traditional single aspect lists will have to adapt, some won't be valid anymore (Nidzilla will go through some major changes).


Personally I tend to design my all comers lists with more anti-tank capability than I should need. I know this gives me a efficiency hit against armies with few tanks or Monsters but at least high strength weapons can still hurt troops.
Although I field a number of multi-purpose units, at least half of my armies tend to be specialised to specific roles, again certain opposition lists will make some of these redundant but rarely is their nothing they can be used for.

[DoctorDogmeat]

I like to have my units as flexible yet hard hitting as possibly but the expensive is that they are weaker and tend to be outnumbered.

Main thing is to play nicely not upset anyone. If your using a nasty list don't be nasty yourself.