Abusing army threat management thresholds

[kgoreham]

Hi, I'm new. Personally, I've found these sorts of one-trick lists pretty easy for my own well-rounded IG force to deal with. Facing an all drop troop force? Make a castle in the corner of the table with your charge-responders in the middle and your line troops as a arc wall. If he tries to drop in the middle of your quarter-circle he'll either scatter off the table, go crashing into an obstacle (my men), or he'll be butt-deep in Orgyns, Plasma-Gun counter fire squads, and your Command HQ with the meltaguns and the Priest. Or he'll drop just outside your quarter-circle and fall piecemeal to your massed fire. Even if he's doing the Last Chancer thing and every man has a meltagun, a power weapon, and a refractor field. Facing an all-infantry Ork Horde? Good thing you brought your ordinance weapons. Besides dying in droves, he'll fail enough pin tests from those to keep his 40+ man units from hitting your gun line all at once. Which should give you plenty of time to cut them down one unit at a time. The last time someone tried this on me in a 1500 point game, I think I lost a total of 12 men! And while I've never played against an Armored Company, every single person I've ever known who's faced one just snorts in contempt at them. Nuff said. No, what really gives me fits on the battlefield is another well-rounded force that uses combined arms principles to ensure that the weaknesses of one unit type are complimented by the strengths of another. Infantry rushes by themselves are near useless. But if that infantry is properly supported by armor and artillery, that tactic can be devastating. Hence I fear not the All-Infantry Ork Horde. But put a smaller number of Orks in Trukks and provide enough counter-fire to cover them as they cross the table, and I'll lose most of my line if not the game to them.

[kroxigor01]

Originally Posted by kgoreham

Facing an all drop troop force? Make a castle in the corner of the table with your charge-responders in the middle and your line troops as a arc wall. If he tries to drop in the middle of your quarter-circle he'll either scatter off the table, go crashing into an obstacle (my men), or he'll be butt-deep in Orgyns, Plasma-Gun counter fire squads, and your Command HQ with the meltaguns and the Priest. Or he'll drop just outside your quarter-circle and fall piecemeal to your massed fire.

Or, he could drop his whole army on the objective. Or, he could drop in the other corner of your deployment zone (the empty one) and 'roll up' your army. Or he could do BOTH in which case you lose even worse. And what if he is space marines so has Drop Pods (that can box your entire army into the corner and can't die from landing on things).

Facing an all-infantry Ork Horde? Good thing you brought your ordinance weapons. Besides dying in droves, he'll fail enough pin tests from those to keep his 40+ man units from hitting your gun line all at once. Which should give you plenty of time to cut them down one unit at a time. The last time someone tried this on me in a 1500 point game, I think I lost a total of 12 men!

Orks are fearless if they have 12 or more models in a unit so they shouldn't be failing any pinning tests. 3 pie plates will do alot, but not enough to a 150+ Ork horde. You can only kill about 20 a turn (assuming the front ones fan out) and on turn 3 100+ Orks charge you... I seriously doubt the competence of the player who killed 'only 12 men' with this army.

And while I've never played against an Armored Company, every single person I've ever known who's faced one just snorts in contempt at them. Nuff said.

And every person who I ask about Armoured Companies say, 'no not those again!'. Here-say evidence goes both ways. And by the numbers, almost no balanced list can kill 6-7 AV 14 tanks at 2000 points before all their lascannons are gone.

No, what really gives me fits on the battlefield is another well-rounded force that uses combined arms principles to ensure that the weaknesses of one unit type are complimented by the strengths of another.

I very much support units that complement one another, but units do not have to be of a different type to do so. For instance, a Hellhound could complement a Vanquishers tank hunting with its infantry burning ability. However, making sure every enemy unit has a target (what is a heavy bolter going to do if all you have are tanks?) is a sure way to DE-complement the enemies army.

I agree with you on some points that these kind of lists are beatable but you must agree that they are LESS beatable then an army that does not attempt to dry up your targets for some weapons, and overload those of others.

One more hypothetical example of why overloading is desirable.

You have a 3 lascannons, 3 heavy bolters, 3 missile launchers, 3 autocannons, 10 plasmaguns and 90 lasguns in army (fairly balanced would you say? I know there's no tanks but this simplifies things), would you rather face:

A - a marine army with 40 marines, 2 rhinos, a drop pod, 2 landspeeders, 5 bikers and a predator.

B - a marine army with 3 combat squads in Land Raiders.

[Indigo]

Originally Posted by kgoreham

Hi, I'm new. Personally, I've found these sorts of one-trick lists pretty easy for my own well-rounded IG force to deal with.

Gratz, good going, but sadly this isn't the case for everyone else, nor does it account for all other variants of beardy army lists. If it wasn't a universal problem then GW wouldn't be making some effort to try to resolve it.

It's easy to say "oh I have no problems with it" because thats a very loose generalisation that applies limited personal experience against the wider problem. Not trying to "invalidate" your point for the sake of it, just saying that singular points of personal reference in isolation aren't really addressing the greater issue.

[kgoreham]

Originally Posted by kroxigor01

Or, he could drop his whole army on the objective.

How many objectives are we talking about here? In a C&C misson, you would set up your castle on your own objective. If he dropped all his troops on his, then the result isn't any nastier than a standard deployment would be. With the added benefit that he wasted all those extra points for drop troops. He then has to foot-slog into my fire lines while I run Chimeras into his.

If the mission is Seize Ground, then all I have to do is grab the 2-3 objectives closest to the one I'm sitting on. So I shoot him up piecemeal as he drops his troops in from reserve over 3 turns. Once I feel safe enough, I can march out and seize what I need. My sentinels can help contest the rest.

Annihilation missions might well be a pain. But then they always are for guard.

Originally Posted by kroxigor01

Orks are fearless if they have 12 or more models in a unit so they shouldn't be failing any pinning tests.

Point taken.

Originally Posted by kroxigor01

3 pie plates will do alot, but not enough to a 150+ Ork horde. You can only kill about 20 a turn (assuming the front ones fan out) and on turn 3 100+ Orks charge you... I seriously doubt the competence of the player who killed 'only 12 men' with this army.

Actually, it was one Pie plate and my gun line with lasguns, hvy bolters, autocannons, and missile launchers against about 100 Orks. I was really scared when he first deployed. But in the end he crumpled enough that I was able to run both units off the board after some counter-charging. A more competent player would have killed most of my line squads and given my Orgyns something to do. But then again a more competent player would get bored of that tactic pretty quickly. There's also other ways for me to deploy that can help against hordes.

Originally Posted by kroxigor01

And every person who I ask about Armoured Companies say, 'no not those again!'. Here-say evidence goes both ways. And by the numbers, almost no balanced list can kill 6-7 AV 14 tanks at 2000 points before all their lascannons are gone.

Except that in 2 out of every three mission types I can neuter him quickly by killing the 3 AV12 Chimeras he brought along with actual troops inside. After that I can concentrate on his AV12 Hellhounds. Then all I have to do is find some cover and hunker down in it.

Originally Posted by kroxigor01

I agree with you on some points that these kind of lists are beatable but you must agree that they are LESS beatable then an army that does not attempt to dry up your targets for some weapons, and overload those of others.

Just how beatable they are depends on the mission, the deployment, and the terrain. These lists can be quite challenging given perfect circumstances, but they're much less of a problem now than they were in previous editions when every mission was annihilation. The varying mission types demand a certain flexibility that favors a more rounded list. And often, a fairly minor change to a well rounded list can make a big difference when facing them. Take heavy bolter squads for instance. Swapping just one of those heavy bolters for an autocannon will suddenly make that squad a threat to AV12 Chimeras and Hellhounds without decreasing their anti-infantry capability by all that much. And it'll also help you with those pesky Orks in Mek Armor.

Originally Posted by kroxigor01

One more hypothetical example of why overloading is desirable.

You have a 3 lascannons, 3 heavy bolters, 3 missile launchers, 3 autocannons, 10 plasmaguns and 90 lasguns in army (fairly balanced would you say? I know there's no tanks but this simplifies things), would you rather face:

A - a marine army with 40 marines, 2 rhinos, a drop pod, 2 landspeeders, 5 bikers and a predator.

B - a marine army with 3 combat squads in Land Raiders.

A force without tanks isn't well-rounded. Give me a couple of Russes and I'll take on the Land Raiders at least once.

[kgoreham]

Originally Posted by Indigo

Gratz, good going, but sadly this isn't the case for everyone else, nor does it account for all other variants of beardy army lists. If it wasn't a universal problem then GW wouldn't be making some effort to try to resolve it.

I'd say they've gone a long way towards resolving it. 2nd and 3rd editions were pretty frustrating for me because of these sorts of unbalanced lists you're talking about. But the move to more objective-based missions went a long way to help balance things out. I'm actually having fun again when I go gaming.

Originally Posted by Indigo

It's easy to say "oh I have no problems with it" because thats a very loose generalisation that applies limited personal experience against the wider problem. Not trying to "invalidate" your point for the sake of it, just saying that singular points of personal reference in isolation aren't really addressing the greater issue.

And I'm not saying that it's not ever a serious problem. Or that my situation is typical. Only that the situation is far from dire, has improved in the new edition, and that you shouldn't go into these games assuming that you're going to automatically lose against a beardy force. Nor should you expect that your own unbalanced list will always win in every single situation and mission type. Maybe I'm being too much of a Captain Kirk, but there's ways of using strategy and tactics to deal with most every unbalanced list. Up to and including a simple refusal to play them in the first place. The conversation thus far has been pretty doom and gloom and seems to assume that you only play annihilation missions. I'm trying to shine some light in here and point out that you DO have options.

[PsyBomb]

I like this tactica. You make a lot of good points, and the discussion that followed it gives the methods both to use and counter it. I play tau (if you hadn't figured that much out from my sig and title line), and the one person I play against most plays Tyrranids... and his two main lists are Nidzilla and Gaunt Swarm style. He's done a balanced version before, and I honestly thing the list is far nastier when he has multiple strengths.

While I personally don't like the style of play (I vastly prefer the TAC stle mentioned earlier), I can acknowledge that it is a very good way to rapidly overwhelm poorly-constructed or poorly-planned list. I consider it much like Full Burn decks in M:tG in that respect. They'll obliterate the unprepared, but be ready to face poor records if you don't do it well or start finding truly adaptable players.

My one question is this: I realize that this tactica works quite well in the 1k-3kpoint range, but what do you do in the 500-750 range? I find that it is incredibly difficult to make a single-aspect list there, if only due to 1+ limits on most armies (Tau example would be that you MUST take a 60+ point commander and MUST take a 60+ point FW squad at a minimum).

[kroxigor01]

Originally Posted by PsyBomb

My one question is this: I realize that this tactica works quite well in the 1k-3kpoint range, but what do you do in the 500-750 range? I find that it is incredibly difficult to make a single-aspect list there, if only due to 1+ limits on most armies (Tau example would be that you MUST take a 60+ point commander and MUST take a 60+ point FW squad at a minimum).

Tau could spam (only 3 at 750 points, but still enough to have more skimmers then skimmer killing weapons) skimmers who can only be glanced. For most armies it is difficult to overload at low points however. For some armies though it is easier, like the Imperial Guard who can spam their previously weak Chimerae through the use of the Grenadiers doctrine ,getting 3 Chimerae and 15 riding infantry with 8 plasma/melta guns.

I like this tactica. You make a lot of good points, and the discussion that followed it gives the methods both to use and counter it. I play tau (if you hadn't figured that much out from my sig and title line), and the one person I play against most plays Tyrranids... and his two main lists are Nidzilla and Gaunt Swarm style. He's done a balanced version before, and I honestly thing the list is far nastier when he has multiple strengths.

One must remember that it is not the unit type (what you change when you try overloading), but the units equipment and weapons that give it it's strengths. This is not always the case (as with tyranids where anti tank capacity is almost exclusive to TMCs) but it is possible to overload AND keep all you previous strengths (Ex: a mechanized marine army replacing its Devestator squad with a pair of Hellfire Dreadnoughts, it retained its anti tank but removed its infantry element).

[rafis117]

A lot of good points..."CYA" lists (the common offenders being 'Nids, IG, and Orkz for spam, or SMs if you count LC spam) are annoying as hell (except my first game where a friend who was getting me into the game loaned me half of his Templar army, and half to my opponent. My TL LC dread insta-gibbed both his landraider and his AsCa dread...so to some extent it's about the numbers that show.)

I have actually given this problem a lot of thought, the local enemies being Necrons, Lascannon-spamming space marines, Nidzilla/untold numbers spam Tyrannid list, another Space Marine list (blessfully balanced that Templar army) and Tau.

I made my army to deal with multiple "cya" variants, and accomplished this mainly with loading up on firepower, and the occasional Fire Prism.

To some extent, the set-up of the army is very important; as was said in the first post, I get to Falcon my units (if I had Dragons I would definitely dragon-wagon the falcon...which rhymes to a heretical extent) I get lots of AV 12 skimmers, and then I get brightlances. Lots of brightlances. they are my security blanket, insurance, and the answer to all questions involving armor. These help alot, but I use the Eldar move really fast rule (officially "fleet of foot") to be very tricksy and hard to hit. It's the only viable strategy with glass cannons. Space Marines just give themselves enough armor to be able to walk through death-pies to the strategic points.

That being said, a lot of it just comes out to how the dice are rolled. I've seen the same two players, with similar deployments, on the same map, with the same army list, duke it out and the winner was not always the same.

My strategy against "cya" armies is to understand (like was said) that any unit not efficient (no tanks to pop, few infantry to mow down, etc) are meatshields. leadership save to shoot at not the closest target has saved my reapers more than once. With Eldar and Space Marines at least, one can take units that can pay off many times their own in their field, including units like; landraider, fire prism, terminators, devastators, any kind of SM veteran, howling basnhees, dark reapers, Eldar rangers, and striking scorpions. Many of these units can tie down many times their own, numerically and in point value, saving one's bacon. Leaving rangers and scorpions on one side of the field and sweeping around with the rest of my army on the other side can work.

To have a good "tac" army, one cannot just have units that will use combine all their fire and pray that it's enough, one must take units that are EXTREMELY good at one thing (popping the big-bads, killing light infantry, killing heavy infantry, etc) and use those properly (viz. don't get your reapers in CC or put your termies down-range of lascannons).

I think what this boils down to is
a) plan at least one legal list. I have different lists for different types of spam that my friends use
b) understand how to and how not to use your units. Shooty units need an un-obstructed view and not be in CC, etc
c) understand how your army can counter "tac" armies or the various kinds of "cya" armies; ex: could your devastators do more if they targetted...?
d) play tactically. don't assault with your snipers
e) make due sacrifices to the dice gods (I kid)