What is the exact effect of the Dark Eldar goblet of spite? - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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    What is the exact effect of the Dark Eldar goblet of spite?

    The wording it that any model in the same unit as the Succubus and any units with a model in base contact with the Succubus and/or his unit will always hit on a 3+ in hand-to-hand combat regardless of other factors.

    I need to clarify what would be the impact in the following situation:

    -Unit affected by the goblet of spite assault a skimmer with their weapons. Do they hit on a 3+ or on a 6+? (This would also mean that they would need a 3+ against an immobilised vehicle instead of getting an automatic hit).
    -Unit affected by the goblet of spite assault a skimmer with grenades. Do they hit on a 3+ or on a 6+? (this would also mean that they would need a 3+ against an immobilised vehicle instead of getting an automatic hit).
    -Friendly unit have a model in base to base contact with the unit carrying the goblet of spite. Do they hit on a 3+ in the assault phase?
    -Ennemy unit have a model in base to base contact with the unit carrying the goblet of spite. Do they hit on a 3+ in the assault phase?


    I beleive the answer is always the 3+ but I'm seeking the expert opinion of the rules forum.


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  3. #2
    Dark Eldar Zealot Wicky's Avatar
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    434 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by 40knoob View Post
    The wording it that any model in the same unit as the Succubus and any units with a model in base contact with the Succubus and/or his unit will always hit on a 3+ in hand-to-hand combat regardless of other factors.

    I need to clarify what would be the impact in the following situation:

    -Unit affected by the goblet of spite assault a skimmer with their weapons. Do they hit on a 3+ or on a 6+? (This would also mean that they would need a 3+ against an immobilised vehicle instead of getting an automatic hit).
    -Unit affected by the goblet of spite assault a skimmer with grenades. Do they hit on a 3+ or on a 6+? (this would also mean that they would need a 3+ against an immobilised vehicle instead of getting an automatic hit).
    -Friendly unit have a model in base to base contact with the unit carrying the goblet of spite. Do they hit on a 3+ in the assault phase?
    -Ennemy unit have a model in base to base contact with the unit carrying the goblet of spite. Do they hit on a 3+ in the assault phase?


    I beleive the answer is always the 3+ but I'm seeking the expert opinion of the rules forum.
    Hi,
    as stated in the Dark Eldar Forum are we so sure that "hand to hand" is enough to qualify for assault on a non weapon skill vehicle?
    Cheers.
    In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.

  4. #3
    0!=1jumpin'punch'swing jONESIE's Avatar
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    103 (x3)

    Quote Originally Posted by 40kDude
    I beleive the answer is always the 3+ but I'm seeking the expert opinion of the rules forum.
    Quote Originally Posted by wickywacky1 View Post
    As stated in the Dark Eldar Forum are we so sure that "hand to hand" is enough to qualify for assault on a non weapon skill vehicle?
    Well, it's a tough call. Common Sense says the GoSpite would only affect stuffs with a WS value. Common Sense also says an Immobilised Vehicle will still be auto hit, even with a Goblet of Spite (much like Necron Heavy Gauss penetrating armour with Str+6 instead of an auto glance)
    But, the rules are clearly stated as 'Always on 3+'. You are always affected, maybe an enemy too- depending on where you take the unit with the GoS item.

    It has long been known, the dirty (if not expensive pts-wise) trick of giving Wyches a GoSpite and go Monolith/ Heavy armour hunting.

    Best way to look at it is- yep, it should really be used for stuffs with a WS value, going by it's fluff. But, unless clarified before the game, rules allow it to do it's 3+ hit thing on anything, as it affects you, much like Kharn the Betrayers 'Gorechild' also has a set 'to hit' rule.. Make sure to discuss it before the game, or if it is pulled on you unwittingly, then you should cop it on the chin as a nasty Dark Eldar trick, pretty much guarenteed you won't have it happen to you again

    I say yes- Goblet of Spite is always 3+, and would affect skimmers but you'd still auto hit Immobilized vehicles. But be warned, older rules also need Common Sense in navigating through things like the Immobilized situation suggested above Good question, Chief
    Last edited by jONESIE; August 2nd, 2007 at 06:48. Reason: altered Bold conclusion =P
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    Dark Eldar Zealot Wicky's Avatar
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    For such a cheap points value I just can't believe this at all, sorry.
    Common sense tells me the opposite and if I said to a player I have wargear here that costs under 6 points that ensures that my entire squad and everyone in contact with it hits on a 3+ they would not believe me.
    It just doesn't make sense.
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    0!=1jumpin'punch'swing jONESIE's Avatar
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    We all know the Dark Eldar codex has little glaring rules such as this, Plasma Grenades etc.

    Yep, it's cheap as chips. But it affects you and the enemy. That is it's downfall. Wych Weapons would half be negated if you also took a Goblet of Spite as you change the modified WS to a Constant 'to hit' rate. GoSpite is actually very.... bad... waste comes to mind.. unless coupled with grenades.

    Berzerker Glaive/Infiltrate and Daemonic Speed had it's day, as did the Seer Council, as did many other things. For a few points, I can kit out 2K of Grey Knights with Targetters for each unit, allowing me to pre-measure around 140 shots on turn 1 from across the table, on the move. And for the same cost as the Goblet!

    This cheap trick of GoSpite and Haywire Grenades will also have it's days before it is changed, whether it's in character of the army or not (tricksey Elves!!!). Blame GW for a lack of errata

    I do.
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    Son of LO Tenozuma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wickywacky1 View Post
    Hi,
    as stated in the Dark Eldar Forum are we so sure that "hand to hand" is enough to qualify for assault on a non weapon skill vehicle?
    Cheers.
    Yep.

    Indeed. Yeah, I think being in base contact with a vehicle to attack it in close combat qualifies for "hand to hand" quite nicely. As far as the goblet of spite being worth it, that's a whole 'nother issue.

    By the DE faq, as long as there is another DE unit in the combat, wych weapons half the enemies' weapon skill even when the wyches are attacking, and as such they are going to be hitting on 3's anyway against pretty much everything with a weapon skill (well, as long as they have ws6 or less). As such, under normal circumstances, even for its small cost it is a waste as it means you'll hit stationary vehicles on 3's too or that enemies will hit you back on 3's as well,

    As such, the only use I can see for the goblet of spite is with the haywire grenade wych squad to take out things like the monolith, it's still very debatable if this is worth it, esspecially for such a limited use against such a specific opponent but there you go, some people are mad enough to do it. I'm really not a fan of the aforementioned squad and that has nothing to do with the unfluffiness or the perhaps a little too creative interpretations of the goblet, it just doesn't see very good to me, esspecially in a take all comers environment where you don't know what you'll be playing against next, so taking a squad just for the purpose of killing the monolith seems less than clever to me.

    My 2 cents.
    ~teno

    EDIT: hmm... I got to this thread from a link so I assumed it was a DE forum thread instead of a rules forum thread, hence the look at it from a tactical point of view rather than the rules wording and such...
    Last edited by Tenozuma; August 2nd, 2007 at 07:06.

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    Dark Eldar Zealot Wicky's Avatar
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    Hi,
    this is getting a bit off topic here - I know that it effects both ways but thats the whole point with the original post, chances are there won't be an enemy to strike back, period. So the two way traffic is a moot point in regards to vehicles.
    For the points value and the "hand to hand" description I would feel guilty as hell claiming its benefits against a non weapon skill vehicle thats all, tricksy elves not withstanding.
    And I see that you can not get into close combat with a no wep. skill vehicle, assault yes but CC no. Close combat involves engaging and locking and thats not possible here.
    Cheers.
    In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.

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    Wicky I've got a question for you. Trying to change your position here on close combat vs assault for the effect of grenade.

    Assume you have Space Marine in front of a razorback and that your unit of witch carrying a haywire grenade can assault both the Tank and the Space Marines.

    In which part of the assault phase would you establish if the grenade hits?

    1-Pick a combat.
    2-Fight Close Combat.
    3-Determine Assault Results.
    4-Loser Checks Morale.
    5-Breaking-off and Consolidation
    6-Pile In (never occurs against non ws-vehicle)
    7-Repeat until all combats have been resolved

    Source p.36

    Note 1: you could still claim that for you hand-to-hand and close combat are two different things.

    Note 2: I want to make it clear to everyone that read this post that I have a lot of respect for wicky and I agree with the majority of his position (except this one obviously).

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    Dark Eldar Zealot Wicky's Avatar
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    434 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by 40knoob View Post
    Wicky I've got a question for you. Trying to change your position here on close combat vs assault for the effect of grenade.

    Assume you have Space Marine in front of a razorback and that your unit of witch carrying a haywire grenade can assault both the Tank and the Space Marines.

    In which part of the assault phase would you establish if the grenade hits?

    1-Pick a combat.
    2-Fight Close Combat.
    3-Determine Assault Results.
    4-Loser Checks Morale.
    5-Breaking-off and Consolidation
    6-Pile In (never occurs against non ws-vehicle)
    7-Repeat until all combats have been resolved

    Source p.36

    Note 1: you could still claim that for you hand-to-hand and close combat are two different things.

    Note 2: I want to make it clear to everyone that read this post that I have a lot of respect for wicky and I agree with the majority of his position (except this one obviously).
    Hi,
    Firstly the problem I have is with the Goblet of Spite and not the Haywire Grenade, and the grenade could be used in “2-Fight Close Combat” stage but it is really is an assault on just the vehicle and has no effect on the space marine at all as it is only effective against vehicles and its use precludes using any other weapon in assault for that turn. So the marine is immune if you want to use the grenades that turn.
    Page 36 has outlined close combat and not “Infantry Assaulting Vehicles” that is on page 71, and I counter quote “ Whilst Vehicles can be assaulted by infantry, they can not be locked in close combat by them…….”
    The quoted sequence 1 to 7 does not apply to non weapon skill vehicles so the grenades don’t really figure here at all.
    Cheers.
    P.S. Nice debating with you.
    In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.

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    Hey Wicky let's torture this question some more (in good old Dark Eldar custom).

    Page 71 although it does say that vehicle can't be locked in close combat they still are in close combat has I would say is evident by the "Armour penetration in close combat" on the same page which applies to both WS and non-WS vehicle.

    Just a metaphor to illustrate that further, the fact that I don't have the key to lock you into a room, doesn't mean that you are not in the room. (The reason I use this metaphor is that the word locked in Wicky's argument is being used to equate close combat while to me it is clear that they are two different things).

    Again you can still claim that hand-to-hand is only a subset of close combat but to me hand-to-hand = close combat.

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