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I have scarabs, specifically. My understanding is that swarms are instakilled by weapons with a strength double their toughness. Is this also true in close combat? I couldn't find it in the core rule book under swarms, but I thought that power weapons and high strength models instakill swarms. Is that correct?
And while we're at it, swarms are supposed to take 2 wounds from blast and ordnance weapons, but I assume that, say, the Vindicator's battle cannon would instakill any swarms it hits, not do only two wounds per base. Clarification needed.
thats like 4 questions....
1. double strength insta kills a model unless otherwise stated. So yes it occurs in H2H as well.
2. power weapons have extra affect on insta kills. they just do their thing to saves.
3. blasts do two seperate wounds to a unit if it is a swarm.
4. a battle cannon doing this would do two seperate wounds therefore killing 2 bases, as one wound is dealt out, and insta kill is worked out, then another wound is dealt and instakill is worked out.
now what happens in the case of a squad is bases with a regular unit is hit, i'm not sure...
there isn't a majority rule on it so i dont know. ie. what was mentioned in the other post of a spider beign in a squad with scarabs....
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Well, as far as the "unit" with bases, I think we're talking about scarabs, still, yes? In this case, the tomb spider. You would roll to scatter, determine how many are under the template as usual, and then roll to wound using the majority toughness. The defending player gets to allocate wounds.
*THIS is why I believe that the number of wounds aren't doubled and then put on separate models.
the wound caused by ord gets the bonus and THEN you check for instant death. You the wound has to be DEALT before instant death can be checked, the way you have it explained, you are checking instant death and then allocating wounds.
The wounds don't even exist until they are allocated, then the bonus THEN "oh crap, those two wounds are double T strength.. kaput.
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Here is an example that would cause a bit of a problem for a Necron player like me.
A S6 AP2 Ord Blast hits a group of 3 scarabs and a tomb spider. The blast does 2 wounds and the Necron player gets to allocate the wounds. If he applies a wound to a scarab base, the base is instant killed due to 2x toughness. So he would loose 2 bases. If he allocated both wounds to the spider, it dies due to AP2 damage, and this causes all the scarabs to go away. He could take one wound on a base destroying it and then take one wound on the spider.
I would go with the option to loose two bases since I can always make more.
Think i agree with theyak here, wounds are doubled before instant kills. I think the doubling wounds thing is for low S blasts.
Regarding the interaction between the "Vulnerable to Blasts/Templates" and "Instant Death" rules, this is covered in the 40k Rulebook FAQ. It's located on the fourth page, under Special Rules, but the long and short of it is each wound inflicted by a blast/template (with S >= 2xT) Instantly Kills two bases.
As to the question of a Tomb Spider with Scarabs, I think the rule requiring you to remove whole bases when possible would come into play here, and you would either have to remove two Scarab bases, or the Tomb Spider, not one base and one wound to the Spider. And since killing the Spider also kills the Scarabs, your only real choice is to off two Scarab bases. Kinda sucks, but there it is =).
And, as to your other two questions, Instakills due to high-strength (double the toughness) attacks still occur in close combat, though power weapons have no special interaction with swarms. You may be confusing your "We'll Be Back" and Swarm rules, as power weapons do interact with WBB.
Last edited by Hasten; August 29th, 2007 at 16:51. Reason: Now with more speculation!
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The Necron player gets to allocate the wounds one at a time. The first wound he allocates to a scarab base. Because the base is "Vulnerable to Blasts/Templates" the wound is doubled. Since the wound is 2xT each wound instant kills a base, so the Necron player would have to remove two scarab bases. Notice that we have complied with the rule about removing whole bases.
Now I see no reason why the Necron player can now choose to apply the next wound to either the remaining base or the spider. If the wound goes to the spider, it takes a wound and end of story. But what happens if the Necron player applies the wound to the one remaining scarab base? The wound gets doubled...instant kills the remaining scarab base...but what happens to the other wound? Ignore it because all the scarab bases are dead or apply it to the spider?
There are several elements at work with this one.
P.27 BGB "Creatures with more than one wound": you must remove whole models where possible. The final Scarab base would have to go, as it cannot survive against the 2xT wound whereas the Tomb Spyder can.
P.23 BGB "Multiple Toughness": the Tomb Spyder's toughness is reduced to that of the Scarabs, but
P.24 BGB "Armour piercing Weapons" second last paragraph: "..you begin by removing all models who do not get a save". Against an AP2 wound, neither the TS nor the Scarabs get a save. This is where P.27's rule concerning multiple wound models has to be employed in conjunction with P.24.
To quote njfed: "The Necron player gets to allocate the wounds one at a time." Not exactly; he has to follow the rules as quoted above, in particular P.27.
The easiest way to avoid the problem is "Never have a Tomb Spyder give birth to Scarabs."
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Mixed armor overrides all of that. You have to put the stray wound on whichever model is up to receive it based on his armor group.
Remember the rule says you must remove whole models "where possible." A mixed armor situation is one of the cases where it isn't always possible.
Where it gets really sticky, what if you have doubled wounds from a krak missile to apply? Does the tomb spider get a save? Technically the save for that wound has already been failed!
Last edited by InquisitorAffe; August 30th, 2007 at 21:59.