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Ok this came up in a Vassal game tonight.
We have 3 units. A White Scars Troop Bike Squad (Unit A), a Nurgle Bike Squad (Unit , and a White Scars Elite Bike Squad w/ Furious Charge (Unit C). All units have Frags.
Unit A was pulled into cover by a Lash from a Daemon Prince and charged by Unit B. The Combat was fought @ I10 as Unit A was in cover and Unbit B had Frags. After the pile in move, Unit C charged Unit B on the next turn.
Now the question is, would Unit C strike in I order thus going first because of furious charge (I5 v. I4) since the combat was in the second round and cover bonuses were gone? Or, would the defending unit (Unit strike @ I10 vs. Unit C since Unit B was charged while in cover?
NOTE: Also, if it makes any difference, Unit C was already within the piece of terrain/cover when they charged.
Last edited by Spector; October 9th, 2007 at 07:03.
As far as I'm concerned, the combat is fought in Initiative order. The last sentence of the second paragraph under "Cover" in the assault section says the benefit for cover is lost after the first turn of combat. This as the second turn of combat means that it provides no bonus.
Now Grenades are a different issue, RAWise I believe you can still throw them when the enemy is already engaged in CC. But don't quote me on that one...
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This is not a RAW issue. This is a pure RAI issue. You need to decide which it will be with your gaming club.
Here's my answer in another thread from a while back:
Does a fresh charge into an existing close combat start another "first round of close combat"?
Argument 1: Yes. Therefore, guardsmen vs marines in cover, charged by marines with frags, the marines with frags strike at I10, any guardsmen striking the charging marines get I10, marines already in combat strike at I4, and any guardsmen striking the marines already in combat strike at I3.
Argument 2: No. The marines with frags charging into cover stay at I4, so do the marines already in combat, and all the guardsmen stay at I3.
The rules do not say which is the correct answer. If you believe it does start a "first round of close combat", then following the rules, it is now clear what happens. If you don't believe it starts another "first round of close combat", then again, it is now clear what happens.Originally Posted by chat
I hate to bring common sense into this one (I know it often causes offence) but I would say definitively (in my opinion of course) that neither the cover nor the grenades would count.
The reason a squad in cover gets to fight at initiative 10 in the first place is that they are waiting amongst the cover to receive the charge, using the cover to allow them to strike out at the best moment. If you're in a middle of fighting another squad already you don't really have the opportunity to brace yourself for the second wave's attack!
As for grenades - you can't target a squad locked in combat with shooting, what makes you think you'd lob grenades in amongst them?
So in conclusion I would definitely say I order, Argument 2. It may be the first round of combat for the charging squad, but it isn't for those already fighting.
I hope this makes sense and I don't sound too agressive, some of the people I play with will argue about stuff like this till we're both blue in the face!
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I would have to agree.
the whole idea of why a unit in cover get a bonus is void when they are already engaged in a combat. This would not matter at all if the rules were clear, but since they are not...
I agree also, once a unit is engaged in combat it has already been through the one time phase of being charged.
On page 36 BGB in the first paragraph it does state that” a player can declare a charge……on an enemy unit…not already in close combat.”
Unit C could not claim to have charged on the next turn as it was an ensuing close combat.
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Umm, one very important question. Was unit A destroyed or otherwise forced out of CC? The reason I ask is that some people confuse pile-ins with consolidations, thus the need for clarification.
If yes, then init 10.
If no, then normal init.
As stated before, cover only applies to the first round of combat, doesn't matter how many different units are joining/leaving, so long as one of the units was in cc last turn and is still engaged (be it from a consolidation, or a pile in).
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not only is it RAW to fight at initiative order (with an ongoing combat) but it is also a lot smoother play. When this similar situation first happend to me we tried to play it (wrongly) as ini 10 for those fighting the newcomers, and ini order for rest... needless to say it was a mess and a headache, and made for ill feelings all around. moral of story, play it as RAW and you will find it is the easiest to resovle.
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In that case, Acid Maw, tyranid biomorph, only works in first round of combat. Does this mean that you can't use this if you are charging into a combat, because this seems rather incorrect, even from a RAI POV.
I still see first round of combat coming from if it is a unit's first round of combat
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