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Hi all, another query / matter of opinion for you all.
In a game I played last week as Ultramarines against Tyranids, I had a squad of marines drop pod into a ruined building. My opponent charged them with his winged hive tyrant. However they were disembarked to a position under the first floor of the building and the model could not physically fit under it.
The closest he could get the model to base to base with any member of the squad was about an inch and a half away.
Now normally I am pretty forgiving, but I have left 3 inches between the floors in the ruins (they are self-built) and the Tyrant was nigh-on twice the height of the gap between the ground and the ceiling. My opponent (and an observer) both said that he could "crouch" down to fit but I thought it was stretching it a bit as a Hive Tyrant generally isn't exactly known for its agility or compact nature (it's a monstrous creature for The Emperor's sake)!
I didn't push the issue as I was winning anyway (I slaughtered him in the end so it may have seemed a bit petty), but on the other hand, it's setting a dangerous precedent for future games. I couldn't see the same thing happening if it was his troops hiding and my Dreadnought was trying to attack them for example!
I was wondering if anyone else has had similar experiences, and if so if you have managed to find an amicable solution (without resorting to death threats)?
I can just build a piece of terrain that I can barely fit my scarabs/rippers under and they'll be protected.
Heck, gaunts are shorter than most models, I'll just have a piece of terrain with some termagaunts in there, immune to getting assaulted, and lurk them in a ruin giving them effectively a 3+ cover save. No you may argue that such things add realism to the game, without rules to govern what is and isn't allowed in such a situation it will only lead to abuse. If I was your opponent in that situation I wouldn't play another game that used that piece of terrain.
Pieces of terrain are abstractions and the only mention in the rulebook of not being able to pass "through" walls of terrain are enclosed bunkers which have to have access points. Or when the whole terrain is classed as impassable.
The equivalent would be having a forest piece of terrain with fixed trees and saying because he can't fit his model between the trees he can't assault you.
Well yes, you could do that but then people would refuse to play against you. As I stated in my post the terrain I was using was standard size and the assaulting unit was a monstrous creature, the marines had an inch and a half clear space above their heads.
I can take your point though, brusquely as it may have been put.
After speaking to the gents in my local store they reasoned with me that you ignore obstructions in the building as it is area terrain, so as long as it has charge range it can get into "virtual base to base" - and they suggested that such a large model would just smash the intervening terrain out of the way, which I'm happy with.
At the end of the day my squad of Tactical Marines still managed to knock the Tyrant down to one wound so I supposed I can't complain too much!
Tough to address with only "ruined building" to go on. Was it area terrain? WYSIWYG terrain? Did you make custom rules to describe how to use this particular terrain piece. 40K sadly has no rules for buildings in general.
If it's area terrain, the size and dimensions of the model mean nothing. The Tyranid player would be within his rights to remove the building completely and chalk an outline of it on the table.
If it were WYSIWYG with impassable solid bits, you could make a case for no assault, but on the other hand, would your guys have been able to drop pod in in the first place? When firing out did you only fire those models who had a line of sight through a window or door? Did everyone who entered move through an opening their base fits into?
I try to have a fairly detailed house rule written for any terrain piece more sophisticated than the GW ruined building kits. Intact buildings are best played CoD style area-terrain or simply called impassable if you don't have a rulessheet written up for them.
In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.
Unfortunately situations like this are often caused by us being 2nd Ed veterans; we have a few house rules regarding area terrain and buildings that can be a bit hard to quanitfy at times (I think it's about time we wrote a "House Rule Book" to be honest).
As far as buildings are concerned, by and large we use CoD rules (usually even in normal games when we have a few of them) but we add a bit of "that makes sense" to it - so models can't move / shoot through completely solid walls, you can draw lines of sight through terrain if the part of if you're aiming to is clearly open, and so on. Sort of 50-50 Area Terrain and WYSIWYG.
It's not exactly RAW by any stretch but we all find it a good compromise - I just think we need to nail it down a bit more - or start putting datafaxes on the bottom of the terrain pieces we use!
Thanks to all for your comments and suggestions on this one.
Kinda of part of the problem-people playing with LOS area terrain.
This really comes down to following the rules, or making a house rule to address it.
If the terrain is just that, then no, he couldn't assault you. If it was Area terrain, then he certainly could.
Generally, ruins are area terrain, but totally up to your discretion as far as how you wish to define it.
In the odd case of playing LOS area terrain, my vote would be that an MC would have no problems shoving a huge claw into the small space to scoop out the clam (er space marine) meat.
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