assaulting w/ stealth in the mix - Warhammer 40K Fantasy
 

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  1. #1
    LO Zealot Ironangel256's Avatar
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    291 (x6)

    assaulting w/ stealth in the mix

    Just a quick Q here. Basically what I want to know is if a squad fails the roll to see stealth suits or harlequins would it be allowed to assualt another target as the squad did not "shoot" at anything?

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  3. #2
    Senior Member omegoku's Avatar
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    216 (x7)

    Well, If the wording says
    The unit that fails to see the stealth suits cannot target another unit, you can take it that they wasted there shots firing at shadows and cannot charge.
    If they can target another unit after not being able to see them, then I suppose they would charge the retargeted squad.

    Thats my guess
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  4. #3
    The ORIGINAL Sniper Puss eiglepulper's Avatar
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    596 (x8)

    If you have failed to pass the roll to see the Stealths or Harlies, you have still tried to target them with shooting. The rules state you must charge the unit you shot at. Technically, you did shoot even if you didn't actually get to fire anything.

    It would appear to be the same sort of situation as when you move a model in a unit which has a heavy weapon in it. It doesn't matter if the heavy weapon trooper moves or not; if *any* model moves, it prevents the heavy weapon from shooting. So I would take it that if you choose to try to see the Stealths, you have made your choice between the two options offered in the Tau codex and have effectively targeted the stealths with shooting.

    That got a bit confusing, perhaps? Sorry!

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  5. #4
    Suffer not the Unclean InquisitorAffe's Avatar
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    381 (x8)

    Well, they're not identical situations. The way stealth and nightfight rules are worded, you did shoot, but were out of range. The way the Harlequins work, you were not permitted to shoot at all. So you might be able to build a case for assaulting something else after failing a Veil of Tears roll.

  6. #5
    Senior Member ZenGamer's Avatar
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    137 (x3)

    Not sure about veil of tears, but I am pretty sure that if you try to fire at stealth suits and fail due to the stealth fields, then you cannot choose to assault something else.
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  7. #6
    PP is my master now... Hasten's Avatar
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    135 (x4)

    Personally, I don't see why they wouldn't be able to assault anything they wanted. They haven't actually 'shot' at anything. In fact, in the similar wording of the Grey Knights' Shrouding ability, I believe it states that the unit that fails their spotting roll "misses their opportunity to fire at anything else in the confusion". Regardless, though, they haven't actually fired any weapons, so why wouldn't they be treated like any other unit that didn't fire in the shooting phase?

    I'll have to double-check the actual wording when I get the chance, as there may be some particular bit of verbiage that changes things, of course.

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  8. #7
    LO Zealot Ironangel256's Avatar
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    291 (x6)

    I was not sure either way to be honest but my line of thinking was like that of Hasten as from both an RAI and (I believe) a strictly RAW it would make sense.
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  9. #8
    Charitably Tables People MVBrandt's Avatar
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    196 (x5)

    If a unit cannot even fire at something else, I fail to see how they'll be able to adjust and mount a charge against anything else.

    The rule refers to targeting / firingn / etc., and is not based on fluff anyway. Just like LOS, you nominate a target, shoot at the target, etc. all at the same time. If you fail to see a target due to stealth, the "fluff" explanation can literally be that you fired every gun, but couldn't see them very well and so automatically missed.

    Again, the fluff is irrelevant. According to the rules, you waste your shots (it doesn't say you don't shoot, just that they are wasted). Having done so, you cannot then assault ... unless somehow you can assault that same unit ... if a ravener with a devourer shoots at a stealth squad and gets only a 9, and is 12" away, he can still charge the 12" to them. Again, fluff is irrelevant ... if you need a fluff explanation, make one up ... in that example, he shot alright but the stealth meant they were barely visible ... he charged at the faint distortions knowing them to be targets, and once in close combat obviously was able to make them out well enough yatta yatta.
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  10. #9
    PP is my master now... Hasten's Avatar
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    135 (x4)

    Quote Originally Posted by MVBrandt View Post
    If a unit cannot even fire at something else, I fail to see how they'll be able to adjust and mount a charge against anything else.

    ...

    According to the rules, you waste your shots (it doesn't say you don't shoot, just that they are wasted). Having done so, you cannot then assault ...
    My quoting the Shrouding rule (or winging it, anyways) wasn't to illustrate some 'fluff' explanation. Indeed, it was to illustrate that a unit that cannot 'spot' a Shrouded unit does not "waste" its shots at all. The Shrouding rule -- not fluff -- actually states (I got the real quote this time =P) that the unit "misses its chance to fire at an alternative target in the confusion". It makes no mention of any shots being fired at all, just that the Shrouded unit cannot be seen. Meaning that it hasn't shot at anything -- not the Shrouded unit, and not an alternate target. So I don't see how you can say that "According to the rules, you waste your shots" when you can't 'spot' the target unit. Could you quote the section where it says this? I'm using the similarly-operating Shrouding rule here, but perhaps the Tau/Eldar codices are different? So far as I can see there is no indication that the unit that failed a 'spotting check' has fired at anything at all.

    The way I see it is this: if you shoot a unit, you must assault that unit (so far we both agree: you can assault the unit you tried to 'spot'). But, since a unit that fails their 'spotting check' doesn't shoot at anything during the shooting phase, they are free to assault whomever they choose.

    It'll come down to whether attempting to 'spot' a unit counts as 'shooting' that unit. I'm not convinced it does, since the 'spotting check' happens before normal targeting rules, but perhaps poring over that section of the BGB will reveal more.

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  11. #10
    Dark Eldar Gerbil Splata's Avatar
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    159 (x5)

    Interestingly enough the rules on assault are
    "A unit that fired in the shooting phase may only declare a charge against the unit it shot at."

    So if you don't roll did you fire? I think it then goes down to fluff as to whether or not it says the unit is not permitted to fire or they fired at silhouettes
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