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  1. #1
    Dark Eldar Zealot Wicky's Avatar
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    434 (x8)

    “Always strikes first”

    Hi,
    Does anyone agree that the –
    1. Codex based ruling of “Always strikes first,” (ASF) applies when charging into cover?
    2. If this holds true then ASF gained from “counting as being in cover,” like in the case Dark Eldar Mandrakes, works in all charges except those involving the enemy with Frag grenades (basically anything that denies a cover advantage). Thus overuling the top right phrase on page 39 in the BGB.
    3. And perhaps ASF is being phased out by GW, going the way of Eldar Banshee masks that now have a BGB ruling of initiative 10 instead of the old ASF.

    Bit of a brain bender here.

    In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.

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  3. #2
    LO Ninja Pheonix Lord's Avatar
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    146 (x4)

    Quote Originally Posted by wickywacky1 View Post
    Hi,
    Does anyone agree that the –
    1. Codex based ruling of “Always strikes first,” (ASF) applies when charging into cover?
    2. If this holds true then ASF gained from “counting as being in cover,” like in the case Dark Eldar Mandrakes, works in all charges except those involving the enemy with Frag grenades (basically anything that denies a cover advantage). Thus overuling the top right phrase on page 39 in the BGB.
    3. And perhaps ASF is being phased out by GW, going the way of Eldar Banshee masks that now have a BGB ruling of initiative 10 instead of the old ASF.

    Bit of a brain bender here.
    Hmm indeed. *scratches head* well i do belive that ASF is being phased out. Some rules or some wording of rules seem to go out of fashion. Like the "attacks at + 2 init" (mandi blasters on stricking scorpions, psycho blasters on orks and digital weapons on inquisitors) rules like this just get dumped for more workable rules i.e mandi blasters just add 1 more att (not sure bout orks PB tho).
    Back to the point tho and to be honest i,m not sure. If u ASF but charging cover denies this then you are not ASF which doesnt make sence! GOD DAMM YOU GW! Hmm and i dont think ASF would be affected by grenades, another example of rules and reality at odds. The new banshee mask rules do say however "negates any initiative bonus conferred by cover and grenades" thus representing the shout stunning the enemy. So could you not just paste over the old ASF with this and come up with a plausible reason till GW catch up with the rules?
    (i dont know any rules for DE btw just interpriting what you said best i can)

  4. #3
    Son of LO ze_poodle's Avatar
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    415 (x8)

    If your problem is with Mandrakes, I'd keep an open mind. Dark Eldar are quite obviously outdated.

    The way I see it is this: Cover either gives you the ability to always strike first, or it buffs you to I10. The former, then the Banshee masks (which buff to I10 as of 4th ed, IIRC) would actually strike after. The latter, they would strike at the same time. Of course, I haven't got the codex with me, but the above poster has mentioned that they also ignore the bonus from cover. So, Banshees vs. squad in cover means you resolve it as if there was no cover - so Banshees hit first.

    If Mandrakes always count in cover - if it specifically says that, I'm going off memory here - then Banshees hit first, because they ignore the ASF squads get from being in cover. Now, a Mandrake squad charging any normal squad would hit first, because they still have the ASF from "being in cover". If a squad charges the Mandrakes, the Mandrakes strike first. If the squad had cover-denying wargear, such as frag grenades, both get I10 and they strike at the same time, regardless of who is charging. Since no stat can be buffed past 10, even Furious Charge would confer no advantage - both are at I10 and the charging squad, say, Death Company, can't be buffed to I11. Their initiative is set at I10, in the same way their powerfists are set at I1.

    That's how I'd work it out, anyway. I'll pick up my old DE codex from my friend and check again.
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  5. #4
    Sparta! Exarch Thomo's Avatar
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    198 (x4)

    Quote Originally Posted by wickywacky1 View Post
    Hi,
    Does anyone agree that the –
    1. Codex based ruling of “Always strikes first,” (ASF) applies when charging into cover?
    Depending on the wording of ASF. As far as I know DE are the only ones that still have this rule, and if it is worded as "counting as being in cover" then it would stand to reason that they would strike at the same time (being in cover boosting I to 10)

    Quote Originally Posted by wickywacky1 View Post
    2. If this holds true then ASF gained from “counting as being in cover,” like in the case Dark Eldar Mandrakes, works in all charges except those involving the enemy with Frag grenades (basically anything that denies a cover advantage). Thus overuling the top right phrase on page 39 in the BGB.
    Agree, so far, that against a unit with frag grenades units such as Mandrakes would strike simutaneously at I 10. Reasoning is that the cover rules are 4th Ed even though the codex is 3rd.


    Quote Originally Posted by wickywacky1 View Post
    3. And perhaps ASF is being phased out by GW, going the way of Eldar Banshee masks that now have a BGB ruling of initiative 10 instead of the old ASF.

    Bit of a brain bender here.
    Safe to say that 3 is a given.
    Dovie'andi se tovya sagain (It's time to roll the dice)- Mattrim Cauthon

  6. #5
    Senior Member omegoku's Avatar
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    216 (x7)

    Don't forget Drugged Wyches. They have a rule saying Always Strikes First too
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  7. #6
    Fun guy from Yuggoth Moglun's Avatar
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    235 (x4)

    Being in cover doesn't make you ASF, it gives you I10. So if the codex rule states that you ASF regardless of initiative, then the ASF unit will go first when charging into cover.

    As far as the mandrakes go, I don't know the precise wording of the rule so I could very well be mistaken here, but if it says that they 'always count as being in cover' then when charging they would NOT get I10, as this only applies to units who are being charged. On the other hand, if it says that they get the initiative advantage even when they charge (or only when they charge), then I suppose they would strike at I10 in that situation as well. Similarly, if the 'always in cover' unit were fighting a unit with frags, the frag unit would get I10 if - and only if - they had charged the cover unit.
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  8. #7
    Dark Eldar Zealot Wicky's Avatar
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    434 (x8)

    Thanks for all your replies people.

    The clincher (IMHO) is the phrase in their special rules that says, “…so unless the attackers are armed with frag grenades, the Mandrakes will ASF.” The enemy will have to have something that effects “cover” to break their ASF rule and anything that grants initiative 10 will not do this

    Initiative is not ever mentioned in the Mandrake entry, as this is a core rules effect, so basically the Codex says “always” and the BGB that is printed at a later date says the opposite. Hmmm!

    I am going to apply “ze-poodles” train of thought here, keep an open mind and am going to play it as Codex written mainly because these troops are as expensive as marines but don’t reach anywhere near their stats elsewhere so I don’t think that I am gaining anything untoward.

    Its getting on to a 10 year cycle between Codex revisions and this gets a bit frustrating when trying to play fairly in the modern world.

    Cheers.
    In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.

  9. #8
    Fun guy from Yuggoth Moglun's Avatar
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    235 (x4)

    Quote Originally Posted by wickywacky1 View Post
    Thanks for all your replies people.

    The clincher (IMHO) is the phrase in their special rules that says, “…so unless the attackers are armed with frag grenades, the Mandrakes will ASF.” The enemy will have to have something that effects “cover” to break their ASF rule and anything that grants initiative 10 will not do this
    Having checked out the text, I'm going to have to disagree with you. The rule is that they count as being in cover, and because they are in cover get to strike first barring things like frags. I don't know how the old edition worked, but being as the mandrake rules are not 'ASF' but rather 'counts as being in cover', the new cover rules would apply to them, meaning I10 when charged but not when charging etc. Ignoring this seems to me to be akin to applying the 3d edition BGB rules to every codex which came out before 4th.

    I would also argue that even if one feels that because the text states that they strike 'first' in an assault as opposed to 'at I10' you should go with that and ignore the cover rules, you still cannot apply this advantage when charging, only when charged. The mandrake rule specifies 'attackers', not 'defenders' or 'enemies' or 'combatants', in a context which precedes initiative (ie before they attack). This seems to indicate that they charged, because otherwise they would not be 'attackers', especially considering that the mandrakes are going first.
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  10. #9
    Slave to the flesh The_Outsider's Avatar
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    251 (x8)

    Quote Originally Posted by wickywacky1 View Post
    Thanks for all your replies people.

    The clincher (IMHO) is the phrase in their special rules that says, “…so unless the attackers are armed with frag grenades, the Mandrakes will ASF.” The enemy will have to have something that effects “cover” to break their ASF rule and anything that grants initiative 10 will not do this

    However that part of the madrake rule ties in with the 3rd ed cover rules - which are now obsolete.

    So mandrakes wise I would follow I10 and all that.

    But for drug effects I would go with ASF as its completely seperate to any cover based rules.

  11. #10
    Dark Eldar Zealot Wicky's Avatar
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    434 (x8)

    Hi,
    Smooth logic here in applying the term “attackers” to the enemy and I somewhat agree with your assertions Moglun.

    So this leaves a situation that now seems to be more easily solved by “Outsider” when dealing with being charged or charging since both sides can claim I10 according to 4th Ed rules and thus we arrive at striking simultaneously when charging into cover.

    Like I said before, this one has been a brain bender for me!

    Thanks again.
    In a controversy the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves.

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