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  1. #1
    Member Wundagore's Avatar
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    TMC + LOS Blocking

    Greetings, I have a few rule issues i would to be clarified

    for example:

    We have a size 2 terrain piece, ruins which grant a 4+ save.
    Behind those ruins stands a size 3 Tyranid Hive Tyrant.
    the Tyrant gets shot at, by size 2 infantry ( SoB's). the tyrant is higher thus can be targetted, but is behind cover so he gets a cover save ... yes or no ?

    same thing but little different.
    Size 2 Los blocking terrain, think of a cliff, with a flat "roof" , jump infantry can land on it etc.
    if a Tyrant/Carnifex were to stand behind it, does he get a cover save since he is behind a size 2 terrain piece ?

    Also because they are size 3, they can see and thus shoot over combat in which size 2 units are fighting. right or wrong ? same thing off course for size 2 infantry.

    that would be it, thanks for any help



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  3. #2
    Dark Eldar Zealot Wicky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wundagore View Post
    Greetings, I have a few rule issues i would to be clarified

    for example:

    We have a size 2 terrain piece, ruins which grant a 4+ save.
    Behind those ruins stands a size 3 Tyranid Hive Tyrant.
    the Tyrant gets shot at, by size 2 infantry ( SoB's). the tyrant is higher thus can be targetted, but is behind cover so he gets a cover save ... yes or no ?

    same thing but little different.
    Size 2 Los blocking terrain, think of a cliff, with a flat "roof" , jump infantry can land on it etc.
    if a Tyrant/Carnifex were to stand behind it, does he get a cover save since he is behind a size 2 terrain piece ?

    Also because they are size 3, they can see and thus shoot over combat in which size 2 units are fighting. right or wrong ? same thing off course for size 2 infantry.

    that would be it, thanks for any help
    Hi,
    Size 2 anything will not block LOS to a size 3 model.

    Since the Tyranid Hive Tyrant is behind and not in the cover there is no benefit to be claimed here.

    Cheers.
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    Member Wundagore's Avatar
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    ok thanks for LOS issue, wanted some confirmation on that.
    and are you sure about the cover ?
    BGB p25.
    When do models count as in cover

    well actually that solves my question,
    in the table below, the MC behind Size 2 should get a 5+ cover save.
    and the Tyrant stands behind the Size2 terrain, thus he does get a cover save.


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  5. #4
    Suffer not the Unclean InquisitorAffe's Avatar
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    I'm having trouble picturing the situation you're describing in #2. A cliff that counts as area terrain? I haven't preached this one in a while, so allow me to go on my 4th ed 40K terrain rant =)

    Not all terrain is cover.
    Not all cover is area terrain.

    Not all area terrain is difficult.
    Not all difficult terrain is area terrain.

    Not everything that has a size assigned must be treated as area terrain (the size can be assigned only for purposes of seeing in/over other things. e.g., a size three hill)

    And so on and so on. Any given piece of terrain can have whatever properties you assign to it. If it doesn't make any sense for someone standing on top of a cliff to get a cover save, then don't assign a cover save to the terrain piece! Or at least don't treat it as area terrain. If you have a clear line of sight to the model, no cover save!

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    Quote Originally Posted by wickywacky1 View Post
    Hi,
    Size 2 anything will not block LOS to a size 3 model.

    Since the Tyranid Hive Tyrant is behind and not in the cover there is no benefit to be claimed here.

    Cheers.
    Actually, if the firing model's line of sight passes over terrain, the target is entitled to a cover save (equivalent to being in the cover). This assumes, of course, that the cover is valid (ie, a size-3 shooting another size-3 over a size-1 piece of terrain doesn't help).


    And to another question from the original post: yes, a size-3 model can shoot over combat that involves size-2 or less models only.

  7. #6
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    Inquisitor Affe, you missed the point of their posts.

    However, in the chart for what confers which type of cover save, in the BGB, it labels partial cover from hill crests as a 5+.
    Interpret that as you may.
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  8. #7
    Son of LO tarzen's Avatar
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    1-Despite what may have been said, so long as a model is partially obscured by terrain or AT, it recieves a cover save.

    2-If the HT had TG with it, they could not be hit, eventhough they have shield wall, as they are out of LOS (size 2 behind size 2, as per the faq).

    3-Whether you are in the cover or simply hiding behind it, you get the cover. In fact, if the firer is in cover, and you are not, but the cover they are in will block a little MOV or if it's at, then you ge t acover save.
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    The rules are, as just stated by Tarzen, fairly liberal about granting cover saves. Even the comment about Size 3 vs. Size 3 over Size 1 terrain is not necessarily valid, b/c if a model's knees are partially obscured, that would satifsy the basic criteria (i.e. the model does not have to be 50%+ obscured as with determining squad in cover or vehicle hull down).
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    1. Tyrant behind size 2 ruins
    Cover is anything you can hide in or behind(rulebook, p. 25, "What Counts As Cover?"); when firer's LOS crosses over cover, target gets cover save up to one size smaller (e.g., size 3 target gets cover save from size 2 cover) (rulebook, p. 25, "When Do Models Count As In Cover?"). Answer: yes, tyrant gets cover save.

    2. Tyrant behind size 2 plateaued cliff
    Same as 1. Answer: yes.

    3. Tyrant behind size 2 models in combat
    Models locked in close combat block LOS up to the height of the participating models (rulebook, p. 20, "Line of Sight"). Answer: yes, LOS is clear to/from tyrant over size 2 combat.

  11. #10
    Suffer not the Unclean InquisitorAffe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleBlueMan View Post
    Inquisitor Affe, you missed the point of their posts.

    However, in the chart for what confers which type of cover save, in the BGB, it labels partial cover from hill crests as a 5+.
    Interpret that as you may.
    Well, the question I was trying to answer is 'Does a Monstrous Creature standing on top of a size 2 cliff get a cover save?' I apologize if that wasn't being asked, like I said, it was tough to visualize the layout from the description given.

    The answer is of course yes if the piece has been designated cover granting area terrain. I was just trying to point out that this may be an erroneous over simplification of the rules to begin with. Why would a cliff be area terrain? You can designate it as being 'height 2' for purposes of seeing into/over area terrain. But a cliff still ought to use true line of sight. If the view to a model on top is unobstructed, I would be loathe to grant a cover save based on some idea of 'any model standing on a piece of terrain always gets a cover save' (which is how I see a lot of people at the club/stores here play.) However legal it may or may not be it drives me nuts when the nid players stand their carnifexes with the tiniest sliver of the back of its base up against the side of a ruin so the whole darn model is standing out in the open and claim cover saves. (and measure range from the front of the base of course ;P )

    If of course the target was standing back from the edge and the models firing were close to the base such that they could only see his upper half, a 5+ 'Crest of a Hill' save is appropriate. (Or if the target were on the bottom in a similar situation.)

    I apologize for hijacking your thread with my own pet peeve wunda =/

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