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Does the Mark of Tzeentch apply the +1 invulnerable save at all times? Because with bikers, if they use Turbo-Boosters they turn their armor save into Invulnerable for the turn, and with the Mark of Tzeentch, if it applies, would make a Chaos Marine bikers invulnerable save 2+ in terms of Turbo-Boosters. I haven't done this in a game yet because it SEEMS pretty OP, but i thought i'd ask some more experienced people.
Not sure if its been FAqd yet, but if not then yes it does, 2+Inv saves against shooting if you turbo Boost. Some think youll still be better off with T6 Nurgle bikers though.
No, it confers the 5+ or gives you +1 if you normally have an invulnerable save. Does a biker normally have an invulnerable save? No, he has an invulnerable save only when under the temporary affects of a special rule.
+1 to inv save (to a max of 2+)
Thats a shortened quote, but no significant words edited. It doesnt talk about normal Inv save at all, just that it adds 1 to any Inv save you have. Biker + Turbo + MoT = 2+inv save.
It even sayd ''to a max of 2+'', that line must be there for a reason, otherwise it would say to a max of 3+ or 4+ etc.
Well thanks a lot, 2+ Invul save is pretty awesome. Yes T6 Nurgle bikers can be better but against lascannons and other stuff that'll penetrate armor, and be 2+ to wound anyways, i'd rather have Tzeentch.
"If given to a model that does not NORMALLY have an invulnerable save, the mark confers an Invulnerable save of 5+."
That is a direct quote.
Tzeentch bikers do not get a 2+ invul save, b/c they do not NORMALLY have an invul save.
This subject has been done to death, mostly b/c people completely ignore the second part of the rule that says they only get a 5+ invul save if they NORMALLY don't have one.
Nids & Guard
GMail = MVBrandt
In complete agreement with MVBrandt.
"Mark of Tzeentch
Models with the Mark of Tzeentch gain +1 to their Invulnerable save (to a maximum of 2+). If given to a model that does not normally have an Invulnerable save, this Mark confers an Invulnerable save of 5+."
For anyone that doesn't have the Chaos Codex.
Yes they don't NORMALLY have an Inv save so they get a 5+ Inv save and a 3+ armor save. When they use Turbo-Boosters, their armor save is treated as Invulnerable from ranged attacks for that turn, due to the fact they are moving so quickly. Now if they are moving so quickly it's hard as hell to hit them (AKA 3+ inv save), and if you DO hit them, you have a chance of totally failing to do any damage because their mostly just animated armor (Thousand Sons are just suits of armor basically) or have a magical force that impedes harm, that would make it even HARDER to kill them right?
So they're hauling arse, so they're hard to hit, especially in a vulnerable spot, and Tzeentch is protecting them in some way as well, seems to me that logically, it would confer as 2+. That's the logical point of view.
Now the technical: The MoT gives a +1 to a models invulnerable save, to a maximum of 2+. 3+ Is their Invulnerable save for that turn, so the MoT would up it to 2+. Also, why would they say "to a max of 2+" if NOTHING else in the entire army could even get a 3+? Nothing in the Chaos army, even Abaddon, can get better than 4+. I stand by the 2+, but i do agree they'll nerf it in Fifth Edition rules.
The problem with reading it that way, is then every marked model has a save of 4+. You either get one of the benefits of the rule or the other. It is inconsistent to claim a biker can play mix'n'match because of the wording, but not also argue that your normal marked marine has a 4+ save.Now the technical: The MoT gives a +1 to a models invulnerable save, to a maximum of 2+. 3+ Is their Invulnerable save for that turn, so the MoT would up it to 2+.That is an appeal to common sense, not a technical argument. The rules are full of redundant reminders and offhand notes that either don't add any meaning or only restate something written elsewhere that wouldn't have been changed anyway if they hadn't mentioned it. (In this case the fact that a model cannot have a save of better than 2+ even with modifiers.)Also, why would they say "to a max of 2+" if NOTHING else in the entire army could even get a 3+? Nothing in the Chaos army, even Abaddon, can get better than 4+. I stand by the 2+, but i do agree they'll nerf it in Fifth Edition rules.