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I know that you can have a bolter with a pistol (says in codex). However, I have some questions on it.
A ) Do you have to pay any extra points for the pistol or does it take the role of ccw?
A1 ) If true can any unit with true grit carry both the bolter and pistol?
B ) Even though you probably would not want to, can you fire the pistol instead of the bolter?
C ) This is out of curiosity, can you give a model with true grit 2 bolters? If so how and how much would the points be.
*note* I am pretty sure A and B are true but I would like some clarifications from the more experienced players.
First off, generally models with true grit have a bolter and a ccw, not a pistol.
A) If bolter+ccw are listed as the default weapons, then you don't have to pay any additional points for it. They usually are the default weapon of units with true grt (plaguemarines and space wolves)
A1) Grey Knight true grit is different, it's about stormbolters. Besides that, yes.
If you in fact somehow got a pistol (e.g. a character with plasma pistol and bolter), yes.
C) It is questionable if a model can have the same weapon twice, normal wargear can definitely not be chosen twice by the same model.
However, there is ABSOLUTELY no reason why you would want to equip a model with two bolters, as a model can always only fire one weapon per turn unless there is a special rule saying otherwise.
Assuming that it is possible to equip a model (a character) with two bolters from the armoury, then the points are calculated as normal. There is definitely no non-character in the game who ahs true grit and can be wquipped with two bolters.
This is particularly for space wolves so yes Bolter/ccw is listed as an option as long as you pay +1 pt for the bolter. If I got this straight I can put in a pistol as a ccw with a bolter and the pistol cannot fire or cost extra points for a Grey Hunter. It will only cost the +1 for the bolter. I am making models this weekend and I will not have enough chain swords to go around, so I wanted to put pistols on to take the place as long as it was legit.
For Grey Hunters none of the situations you questioned can arise. They REPLACE their pistol/CCW with a bolter/CCW. They do not keep the pistol, nor can they purchase a pistol from the armory. So for them, it doesn't apply.
For SW characters that could purchase both a pistol and bolter, they can use the bolter one handed, within the restrictions of 'True Grit', and use the pistol as an additional CCW. You could buy two bolters, but since True Grit cannot be used in certain situations, you would find yourself loosing an attack sometimes. Definitely not a recommended tactic.
On a side note, since True Grit does not always apply, I always get a pistol/CCW combination. Otherwise you short yourself an attack during an assault. The only advantage a bolter has over a bolt pistol is if you don't move, then you can get one shot at long range. I never stand still with my Space Wolves. They are always moving, so a bolter offers no advantage, and cost me attacks in an assault.
Thanks for the clarifications. Also...
WolfRaider, for GH why don't you fire your bolter and then assault? That way you get your 1st attack from firing, and the other 2 from close combat since you would have two cc weapons.
It is the same number of attacks if you assaulted with a pistol and ccw with a GH. Also it would be the same number of attacks in cc if someone charged you. The meltagun can be fired using this attack, along with any plasma pistols. The only real disadvantage to firing first is losing a powerfist or powerweapon attack in cc. However, the meltagun can make up for one of those and GH shoot better than they are at cc.
In my opinion most of the things written down are correct but one; about the two bolters on the same character.
Although the True Grit ability allows you to count a bolter as a close combat weapon in close combat to the effect of adding +1 attack, the bolter itself is still a two handed weapon and any model may not carry 2 two handed weapons, the most is 1 one handed and 1 two handed weapons (be it bolter and bolt pistol)
About your thing of using the pistols for close combat weapons the only problem i can see with it would be in tournament if one of your opponents really wants to uphold the 'what you see is what you get' rule... otherwise people shoudn't have a problem as long as you state that 'all models which have a bolter and bolte pistol count as a bolters a cc weapon'.
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How true Hugus, I didn't even think on the fact that you can't buy two bolters in the first place, no matter who you are. No two, two-handed weapons allowed. There, all problems solved.If I'm using the standard assault rules I do shoot my bolt pistols first, then assault. I don't do it under TAR because of the loss of the attack bonus. I'd rather have my full compliment of power weapon/fist attacks on the assault. Sometimes I'll stand and rapid fire instead of assault, but that's rare. And again the pistol is just as good as the bolter in those situations. Usually the stand and fire is for bugs or high I attackers.WolfRaider, for GH why don't you fire your bolter and then assault? That way you get your 1st attack from firing, and the other 2 from close combat since you would have two cc weapons.
The reason I don't use bolters is this: You get one A base, +1A for charge. If you have a bolter that's it, even with True Grit. If you have a pistol you get +1A more for the two CCW bonus. It may not seem like much, but that's ten more attacks, two of which are power attacks (using GH). Using TAR if you shoot and have bolters you loose both the bonus for charging and the bonus for two CCW on the charge. A really big loss. Its even worse with BCs who loose two bonus attacks if they shoot before charging with the TAR.
Now there are plenty of stats people out there who will analyze the probabilties of shooting and loosing the assault bonus based the the opponent's armor and toughness, whether shooting is better, etc.
Me, I play Wolves because I like to assault. My Raiders are exactly that; berserk, rabid wolves rushing out of the hills to tear you a new one :lol: raiding the peasant's livestock, stealing the women, pillage, plinder...you get the idea.
So if its even sort of close I'll always choose assault over shooting. When I feel like shooting I'll break out the DA or TAU.
--- TAR: If You shoot, You only lose the charge bonus. You still get the bonus for having two CCW/pistols, even if You shot in the shooting phase.Originally posted by WolfRaider@Apr 23 2004, 09:53
Using TAR if you shoot and have bolters you loose both the bonus for charging and the bonus for two CCW on the charge.
According to CA2004 at least, which as far as I can see is the most recent version. Page 123, right-hand column, "Attacks".
Unless You're talking about some Special Rule the Wolves have, which would deny them the 2CCW attack on the charge if they shot.
"The meat things seek to destroy ourselves. They hunt us as we hunt them but they are weak and uncertain. The inferior flesh will be entirely destroyed, all biomatter consumed. Ourselves will fight to the last, all weak flesh must be devoured."
I'm talking about the fact the True Grit, as defined for Space Wolves, does not allow you to use the weapon one handed on the round you charge. So you also loose the +1A for two CCW if you have a bolter in one hand using True Grit. So with TAR, if you shoot, you loose the attack bonus (+1 for GH or +2 for BC), and since you charged you also loose the +1A for two weapon combo using True Grit. A loss of two or three attacks per troop. Too painful for me. I stick with a pistol/CCW combo (and don't shoot before charging if I'm using TAR).
I did not know tha firing the bolter denied the +1 for two close combat weapons. The codex says "In game terms, this means that they may count their bolter as a bolt pistol in close combat and will therefore be allowed to roll an extra attack die if they have been equiped with a second pistol or ccw. However a model using their bolter in this manner may not recieve the attack bonus for charging as the bolter is to unwieldly to be fired with one hand while simultaneously hurling yourself at the enemy. " As far as I am concerned, you get the 2 cc attacks regardless of firing or not firing the bolter. The only attack you lose is the +1 rule for assualting. The +1 for 2 ccws still stands. This makes sense because in TAR if you fire with your pistol first you would still get +1 for two ccws.
WolfRaider, if you can state why the bolter does not change into a pistol in cc please explain why. The codex does not state that firing the bolter affects the two cc weapons rule.