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Sorry if this has topic has been posted already but i was unsuccessful in searching it.
I had a group of 5 space marines and a chaplain (IC) as one unit. They were shot at by a basilisk's ordance weapon. 3 of the marines and my chaplain were hit by the large blast and they couldnt make saves against it.
The rule book says i can remove models at the back that didnt get hit as long as the are also in line of sight and in range because it can be thought that the back marines pick up the weapons of the dead marines. It would be great to remove a back marine instead of the chaplain but it doesnt seem logical as how does a normal marine able to pick up the chaplain's weapons and become chaplain himself...but the rules say nothing about the rule fo Independent characters.
So can i remove a marine instead of the independent character? The rules seems to let me but doesnt seem logical.
I wouldn't but one of the better rule interpratators will be along shortly to tell you how its done. But personally I'd just accept the loss of a chaplain.
The rule means exactly what it says! You can remove any member of a unit who's in range and LOS of the weapon. The chaplain muddies it up a bit because of his invulnerable save.
One interpretation is that p24 *requires* you to remove 4 marines and leave the chaplain, because it says you must remove all models who don't get a Saving Throw first.
The other interpretation is that the Mixed Armor rule takes precedence. In this case, you have a choice. You can either remove 4 marines, or you can remove three and attempt the Chaplain's invulnerable save. If you fail, he has to be removed as the 4th casualty.
This has been argued to death in countless threads, I personally believe in version 2.
i guess it might help to think that a back marine pushes the chaplain outta the way and he takes the hit himself for your 1st interpretation. Ppl would do that for an important person lol
As for the part about mixed saves, all the marines and chaplain have the same armor save of 3+. That multi save thing in the rule book deals with models with different armor saves. Chaplain's inv sv is irrelevant for that condition...i believe.
Check p25, 'Sometimes ... a mix of different Armor Saves and Invulnerable Saves [see p76]" It does tell you to go there for that situation, and the rules there do cover it. The rules for how to distribute wounds given on p76 only take into consideration the model's Armor Save, it's true. But the how to handle a model with a discrepant invulnerable is also in that section.
Since the Chaplain and the 5 Marines all formed one unit, and that unit was targeted by the Basilisk, the dead can be removed from anywhere in the unit. The fact that the chaplain happened to get hit and wounded just means that a fourth wound has been caused in the unit as a whole. So yes, four Marines would be removed from it but the Chaplain in that situation would not have to be one of them (as per P.24)
However, once you start introducing the Invulnerable Save element into the equation, things get a little more precise as to which models must be removed. In our example, there is only one model with an Invulnerable Save. If that save is attempted against an X2/AP=Save weapon and is failed, then only that model alone can be removed. You cannot remove a standard Marine in place of the Chaplain because you had specifically taken the save on the Chappie's Rosarius.
It is probably wiser not to try Invulnerable Saves sometimes, and just let the grunts take it!
Last edited by eiglepulper; May 11th, 2008 at 19:30.
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Shadowking, it seems to me that you're slightly misunderstanding the nature of the blast template rule. In 40K (as opposed to fantasy) it is perfectly okay to kill particular models in the unit such as heavy weapons or leaders, in the right situation. The idea in this case is not that a different marine picks up the missile launcher or whatever, but that they are simply not killed by the blast template in the first place, even if they were the only ones under it. The placement of the template determines how MANY hits, but not WHICH models are hit. You would just think of it as being 4 hits distributed amongst the unit like any other shooting attack; the fact that the chaplain or any other particular model in the unit is under the template is irrelevant.
Anyway, IA and Eigle know the way, I just thought that might be helpful for you.
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Moglun said it very well. Blast templates, with few exceptions, are not literally interpreted. The template is merely used to determine how many times the unit is hit. Exceptions apply only (afaik) in the case of the Necron Monolith, where it has an explicit rule that causes the specific model under the hole to be hit differently.
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