Ravenwing Land Speeders scoring

[stayscrunchyinmilk]

Do they? Score, that is (not because they're troop, but because of the ravenwing unit entry where it says they, and the attack bike can be split off from the squad and score) -

The argument against is that this was written in regards to old scoring, and now vehicles don't score as per the BRB.

It's not intended that way, but as written may work, however if they don't score how come DA get their codex smoke launchers (if the BRB supercedes this)

I admit, i was arguing against them doing so, with another DA player, but may need to apologise as he could be right (and we've been arguing this for months)

(No in-game effect involved, just conversation on what's good (or not) about dark angels)

[omegoku]

without looking at the Dark Angels codex, as it is packed away somewhere, I would go with them not being able to score (being a vehicle) and being able to contest as normal.

The DA codex preceded 5th Edition by a fair amount, even if it did have the newer style of layout.

It could be easily argues that the codex does take preference and that DA Landspeeders can score, probably needs a FAQ.

[psichotykwyrm]

DISCLAIMER: All statements are made without the DA Codex on hand.

I don't believe that there is anything in the DA codex that allows a Ravenwing Speeder to score specifically.

All you need is on page 90, right hand column under "Scoring Units".

The argument that "DA Codex supersedes 5e rulebook" holds no weight here, because the DA Codex does not have its own rules for what is scoring and what is not.

The 5e Mission Types have their own outline for what is scoring, so that outline is when playing 5e missions.

Unless, of course, you have a special rule that makes a non-scoring unit scoring. While the Speeder is a Troop, it is still a vehicle, and therefore not scoring as per page 90.

[stayscrunchyinmilk]

Originally Posted by psichotykwyrm

DISCLAIMER: All statements are made without the DA Codex on hand.

I don't believe that there is anything in the DA codex that allows a Ravenwing Speeder to score specifically.

All you need is on page 90, right hand column under "Scoring Units".

The argument that "DA Codex supersedes 5e rulebook" holds no weight here, because the DA Codex does not have its own rules for what is scoring and what is not.

The 5e Mission Types have their own outline for what is scoring, so that outline is when playing 5e missions.

Unless, of course, you have a special rule that makes a non-scoring unit scoring. While the Speeder is a Troop, it is still a vehicle, and therefore not scoring as per page 90.

Dark Angels Codex, page 27, bottom right hand box:

"Much like combat squads, the squadrons attack bike and land speeder are purchased together with the squadron and then deployed at the same time as the squads bikes, but from then on they always operate as completely independant scoring units of one model"

So, The dark angels codex does actually state that the landspeeders are scoring units.

The real question is, is this overidden by the main rule book, if so where? and if not, why aren't the smoke launchers overriden?

[DJinni]

I had forgotten about that one, the intent is not that the Landspeeder can "score."
however as it is a contradiction in the rules rather than specifically an alteration (such as with the smoke launchers you mentioned) or change it will need to be clarified by an official source.
however regardless of how this item works, smoke launchers should function the same as new hull down rules, unless the codex states to use specific rules as opposed to referenceing the rulebook (don't ahve the reference to look right yet)

[eiglepulper]

The times that "Codex overrules rulebook" are mentioned in the BRB always are referring to specific items like weapons, special universal rules and wargear (like smoke launchers). Page quotes would be 62 (smoke launchers), 74 (USRs) and 289 (reference section for stats). Nowhere is it otherwise intimated that Codex overrides rulebook for the basic rule sets like scoring units.

In the DA Codex FAQ update of October 2008, the "overrides" stuff is all again to do with stats, wargear and weaponry.

The way I would be playing things is to use the rulebook as "The Way" for general ruling on things such as Morale, Assault, Movement, Scoring, etc - in other words the framework of the game itself. Where I would use the Codex to overrule the BRB is in situations where we are specifically told that this is what we must do in cases of discrepancy/differences.

E.

[psichotykwyrm]

Originally Posted by stayscrunchyinmilk

Dark Angels Codex, page 27, bottom right hand box:

"Much like combat squads, the squadrons attack bike and land speeder are purchased together with the squadron and then deployed at the same time as the squads bikes, but from then on they always operate as completely independant scoring units of one model"

So, The dark angels codex does actually state that the landspeeders are scoring units.

The real question is, is this overidden by the main rule book, if so where? and if not, why aren't the smoke launchers overriden?

One does need to take into account that this was written at a time when all units were scoring unless otherwise mentioned.

The context of that section is to describe the fact that the whole selection does not need to be destroyed for old style VPs, or does not need to all be on an objective according to how the old mission rules worked.

What we would actually need to see is something that allows them to always be scoring, regardless of the mission rules.

[stayscrunchyinmilk]

Originally Posted by psichotykwyrm

One does need to take into account that this was written at a time when all units were scoring unless otherwise mentioned.

The context of that section is to describe the fact that the whole selection does not need to be destroyed for old style VPs, or does not need to all be on an objective according to how the old mission rules worked.

What we would actually need to see is something that allows them to always be scoring, regardless of the mission rules.

I utterly agree with the intent.

I think it should be bourne in mind that the Dark Angels codex was written with 5th ed in mind, including the scoring criteria, so it can't be dismissed as not having 5th in mind when written. (Defensive grenades? the deathwing / ravenwing?)

In my opinion this is open to translation so i'm going to send a email to GW in the vague hope someone'll clear this up. (laughs at his own naivety)