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Rant - TLoS is a real pain at times, im going to buy a small army and build walls that cover 50% of them so no other army will be able to get a cover save -Rant
Ok this didnt happen to me, but it may concern me when our mini tournament arrives, as i'm Tau.
The beneficiary of these so called rules was the necron player against my freinds chaos. The Necron guys Destroyers weren't based, so in 1 turn like 3 or 4 he was behind a small hill which with the model how it was, on the floor with no flying base, had no LoS to what it wanted to shoot, but as it was a skimmer and skimming the guy said it could draw LoS. On this point it was fair enough it was a low hill and the gun was only a couple of centimetres too low, all flying bases ive seen give stalks higher than needed.
The following turn was a controversy to me anyway. The destroyer had moved behind a combat, as of 5th edition rules you cant shoot through combat. Now my freind wanted to blow up the Destroyer with his 2 Obliterators, however only the chassis of the vehicle could be seen not the necron body, if the combat hadnt been there that is. However with the combat taking place the chassis couldnt be seen, however this was with the baseless destroyer that the turn before had been an inch or two higher to draw LoS. This was dismissed by saying skimmers skim at varying heights and there are lots of different heights that GW has so they can skimm at whatever height they want that turn, within reason.
My understanding was the height a vehicles skims at is set by the stalk. How do we rule on Skimmers with no flying bases modelled.
So any rules help would be great, I find most people deal with rules better before a game than when it happens if it would have a negative effect which is why I want your opinions on how to handle this before it happens
So let me get this straight:
He was sitting on the ground, but claimed that he was a skimmer/jetbike and therefore was actually floating around higher to get a shot... And then claimed that he was flat down on the ground the next turn to avoid getting shot in return??
Next time you see him, whack him in the face with the big rulebook, OK??
That's just plain dirty - you can't abuse a rule like that to give you all the advantage while eliminating your own risk! If he's not going to play them with the appropriate flying bases, then he's stuck on the ground - pick a height and stick to it! In short, your models can see what your models can see, and they can be seen in return - no magical floating to gain an edge!
True Line of Sight makes modelling all the more important - if my guys are kneeling down, they're harder to shoot, but they find it harder to line up shots, too - I can't hide a half inch kneeling model behind 3/4 inch terrain and then claim that they're standing up to their full one inch height in order to return fire over the terrain!!
Wraith is right, and someone got scammed.
First, being a jetbike doesn't help you shoot. If you cannot see part of a model from the eyes of the firing model it cannot fire. That is true line of sight, you can't hover up and down and change hieghts. Just doesn't happen anymore.
Second, I don't believe that combat blocks line of sight. If you can see part of a model from the eyes of the firer you can shoot that model. There is no size 1,2,3 anymore, just physically in the way, or out of the way. (that being said a lot of combats will block line of sight because models will likely be lined up tightly enough to obscure vision).
Also destoyers aren't vehicles. It is a standard infantry that moves as a jetbike. If you can see more than half of it you can shoot it, if you can see less than half of it you can shoot it with a 4+ cover save.
Just want to reiterate...there was some cheating (even if by ignorance) going on.
So I should tell him to base the model appropriately or its at ground level, and that should be how we as a club treat all pf these things. Time to buy myself some skimmer bases.
Whats really odd is two other players thought that you couldnt shoot through a combat, one of which came 8th in the 8th in the last GT heat. Whereas it seems that only a cover save is taken, this supported by both of your views and the lack of anywhere i can find in the rulebook it says you can draw LoS through units locked in combat.
It's on page 6? of the rulebook - models MUST be based on the bases they come on. There's a blurb there about using larger bases for modeling/hobby purposes, but the smallest base you're allowed to use is the one it comes with. In this case, it means that Destroyer MUST ALWAYS be on that skimmer base.
5th Ed allows you to shot through combat - it's just TLOS usually prevents it. (You can't see through the massive mass of people, therefore you can't shoot through it. Destroyers on their flying bases could probably see over it, they're pretty tall.)
The book is also specific as to what you need to be able to see to shoot at something - it's head and torso, aka, main body.
Finally, yes, as nicho said, the Destroyers are not skimmers, but infantry/jetbikes. They always move as jetbikes, and CANNOT land - there is no ground level for them. (To be fair, skimmers can't land either.) The only vechile Necrons have at this time is the Monolith. (And Pylons, if you count apoc.)
p3 of the rule book is entirely clear, a model is to be mounted on the supplied base before being used in the game. For tournament purposes, even a 'mini' tournament, it would really be rather poor form to show up without bases for your jetbikes and expect everyone to play along. The allowance to use different basing with opponent's permission is for people who model scenic bases, not to facilitate laziness or arrangements that alter game mechanics in one's favor (which playing a jetbike without a base very much does).
Following that, as mentioned by other posters, Necron Destroyers are not skimmers. They are JetBikes. The rules are very different! The two significant things to this thread seem to be
1:LOS is checked from the eyes of the firer, not the gun.
2: There is no 50% rule for cover. If any part of the Destroyer model is obscured, he counts as in cover!
As far as the shooting through Combat, it's True LOS just like everything else. If you can see a slice of the Destroyer's body over someone's shoulder, between their legs, through the gaps in the open fingers in their outstretched powerklaw, you can shoot it (usually with a 4+ cover of course.)We call that talking out of one's bottom, around hereThis was dismissed by saying skimmers skim at varying heights and there are lots of different heights that GW has so they can skimm at whatever height they want that turn, within reason.
Last edited by InquisitorAffe; December 7th, 2008 at 06:50.
The trouble is bases get lost broken excetra which must of happened in the necrons guys case, when I said the jetbike was a skimmer I probably did I meant it is skimming really, so to use wquivelent terms that have no basis to 40k the sentence would be becauese its a hoverer and hovers. In my case i have lost a base on my devilfish and my ebay hammerheaddidnt come with one (lucky really, that plastic glue make it as hard to open as fort knox)
The rules in this instance arent too different as im just referring to the action of hovering above the ground, jetbikes and skimmers do it about the same.
1. I think everyone forgot that the big mechanicle gun toter was not a vehicle at that point, as it would of eliminated the need to hover at all
2. By definitions on page 22 theres no usually about the cover save, there always is one shooting through an opponent unit.
How easy is it to find the exact size stalk the original models came with because by page 3 i cant use any old gw flying stand stalk it has to be the right size, same goes for the cron player.
Well, GW provides a low/high option on those stalks. However, they make two sets of them, a smaller and a bigger. The bigger is used more rarely - large skimming tanks (eldar), SM Landspeeders, etc. Necron Destroyers use the smaller stalk set, so you can pick from either of the two provided in that.
I can't imagine anybody splitting hairs over which stalk is used, as long as it's on one. Don't they always come with both anyway if I recall?How easy is it to find the exact size stalk the original models came with because by page 3 i cant use any old gw flying stand stalk it has to be the right size, same goes for the cron player.
I've played against some folks who also don't mount their Landspeeders/Destroyers on stands, but in each case a discussion was had before the game as to what way these models would be treated. In both cases, it was agreed that the models were at 1" height - ie the equivalent (roughly) of the height of a standard 28mm miniature - above the ground so TLOS was taken from that level at all times, adding in the position of the gun mounting of course.
The problem with stands breaking is a real pain; in my Tau vs Nids game yesterday, two of my flying stands snapped off the mounting pin while I was moving the Hammerheads. This again was sorted out amicably, but at the same time it added that element of annoyance for me, as I prefer to be playing by the rules.
I lost anyway.....
"Tau Commandment #226: Participants who use Velocity Trackers in the Tau Clay Pigeon Tournament will be disqualified"