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What happens if a blast lands so that some of the models covered by the blast are separated by, say, the wall of a ruin from the firing unit? Are they hit or not?
What if the firing unit can see them, but they're separated by a wall from the center of the blast?
Similar question with flamers. If some are out of LOS but are covered by the flamer, are they hit? If not, are they counted in the "must cover as many models as possible" rule or can the flamer be turned onto models it can actually hit?
Also, if a blast scatters out of LOS, do the models hit get an automatic cover save, as it says models out of LOS count as being in cover?
when dealing with anything 40k, it is best not to try to apply logic to it.
anything under the plate is hit, cover saves apply as normal from the firers PoV unless it's a barrage weapon (or flamer-equivalent).
This is all covered in the book.
Last edited by arachnid; January 7th, 2009 at 22:32.
also to note further shooting hits do not need to be taken from under the template of from visible models, if his entire squad only has LOS/range to one of your models your whole squad takes the wounds.
but as has been pointed out, the shooting section "take saving throws" explains in great detail.
Dear Game Designer,
Rock is Cheese. Paper is fine.
Since the LOS on a barrage weapon originates from the center of the blast marker, I have a question on how cover saves work with them.
- Let's say an independant character is surrounded by a friendly unit, not attached.
- The enemy fires a barrage weapon at the independant character, centering the blast template on the IC
- The enemy rolls a hit, the IC takes 1 hit, as do 4 of the surrounding units
Does the LOS count as passing through the IC, granting the surrounding unit a cover save?
that would mean that the ic is within 2" of the other unit, and is therefore auto-joined..
But i see where youre going with it.
if we disregard the above and go for some abstract thought:
Ic gets hit squarely on the head, the others do not get a cover save, heres why:
the los doesnt pass through the Ic, it doesnt need to, since:
barrages hit from above, exploding(or whatever) on first contact i.e on the ic's head, not inside him..
barrage-template-holes have a field of view of 360 degrees .
Thus the surrounding unit gets no cover.
unless the ic's head is a hollow jug and the hole of the template fits in it, then explodes, then you might argue for a cover save.
But really, that won't gain you any sportmanship points.
now to dream up a scenario where they Would possibly get a cover save:
place the ic on the bottom of a small, deep crater.
the surrounding unit is still encircling the ic, but on ground level..
the fov of the blast is now restricted mostly to the walls of the crater and the ic's head.
That's how i'd view it anyway.
too tired to check the book atm, i'm probably wrong and gw has some half-cooked aardvark of a rule in there that can be exploited.
That would have to be one DEEP crater arachnid! According to your assessment you'd be drawing LOS from the top of the IC's head to the other models, so the walls of the crater would have to reach close to the same height!
Anywho, I've tested the scenario with the IC and surrounding models. Lo and behold it CAN happen since the blast only has to cover a small part of the base and does not have to originate from the center of the IC's base. The question of cover is a good one, because there is no clear definition of what height the LOS is originating from. However, barrages use blast marker rules, and blast marker rules say that you place the marker's hole over the base or hull of the target model. So this seems to indicate that the blast originates from the height of the top of the IC's base (remember that decorative base scenery is always ignored for LOS).
To bring it all together, the surrounding models get a cover save if the LOS to them from the center of the blast at base level finds them to be obscured. This will be tough to get a "model's-eye-view" of, so a laser pointer would come in very handy.
If a similar thing happens with a vehicle, you trace LOS from the top of the hull. For something solid & boxy like a rhino, this will easily obscure any surrounding models because they would usually have to be more than twice the rhino's height to be fully visible.
So, the reasoning I had come up with is the LOS passes through the units head, to the units surrounding below.
Place a finger on the top of your head
Use your other hand to point to the ground
That's your line of sight, and it's passing through a portion of your head.
LOS passing through another unit would count as cover. So unless your surrounding units are nearly the same height as the model that's been hit, they'd receive a cover save.
LOS for cover is not drawn from the shooter for barrage blasts. BRB pg. 32, ¶ 4.
It drops through non-vehicle models until it hits the ground and radiates from that point, not the model's head.
BRB pg. 30, ¶ 2.
It's a bit distracting mixing abstract rules, with wysiwyg and True los..
then adding a weapon system that is completely 2-dimensional.. tsk tsk..
oh well, templates never have a height value (except when firing at levels in ruins etc)
and are only used in a top-down manner to determine hits (2d)..
to determine cover, we use True line of sight, dropping down to "ground-level" and checking who gets what. (3d)
i guess making blasts have a spherical size-value would make them all too complicated to resolve.
Aardvark was found and eaten.. and yes, it was very chewy!
tidbit: pg 32 , first bullet point.
area terrain gives all models hit in it by a barrage, cover saves..
regardless of where the hole is.